Tremolo help

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Tremolo help

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revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

Tremolo help

I've been trying the tremolo for about 3 months now and am afraid I may have learned it incorrectly. I noticed that my thumb strikes downwards instead of out. What am I doing wrong? I can play the Fuente Y caudal tremolo at about 60bpm on the base line but with at least 2 mistakes and stop till the part where he goes to the 14th fret. I can't keep my tremolo up to speed or hit the high E string by accident. Help!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2014 17:58:31

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

Hi Revendel.
Your tremelo doesnt look wrong to me. You are practicing with a metronome and you have good even spacing with your tremelo notes. The speed takes time to master. Its going to be year before your tremelo is fast and clean so dont give up.

As for hitting the first string, thats more complicated. Most players start by learning tremelo lines on the first string. Later when you have more right hand control you can play tremelo easily on the second or even third string. I would suggest you practice alternating between the tremelo on the first string and then on the second then back to the first etc. to get you right hand used to switching strings.

Other than that I would say keep practicing. These techniques take a long time to master. You are on your way but just keep it clean and when you can do it easily start speeding up the metronome a little during the course of a practice session.

-----0000-------0000-------0000------0000------0000-------0000------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0000-----0000-----0000-------0000--------0000----
-----------------------------------------0----------------------------------------------------------------------------0---------------------------
---------------------------0-------------------------0--------------------------------------------------0-------------------------0--------------
-------------0----------------------------------------------------0--------------------------0--------------------------------------------------0-
-0--------------------------------------------------------------------------------0---------------------------------------------------------------- etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 9:35:36

jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

IHMO as self-taugh ... Tremolo is a complicate technique and the basic exercises are really boring. But they are strictly necesary because they are a base for a perfect technique. They made your brain fit the correct pulses. But at the same time, sometimes, this exercises does not motivate your brain to increase speed, even with metronome, and refuses to do it as a instinctive movement.

And also, transition from the basic exercises to professional falsetas the gap is high, because the coordination of tremolo could be high and you need a really good instinctive techinique to play them.

My solution in this cases is that after basic exercises you can play intermediate exercises. For example, you can try the same but with a very simple bass line of a basic and slow palo "a compás" as soleares with quarter notes intead a 000000 chord and try it with tremolo in E and B strings. This kind of exercise sometimes unlocked the brain.

I remember that this was relly good for me when I learnt the rasgeado of Pepe Habichuela with two fingers. It is similar. It needs a very basic training, but when you try it in quick falsetas the sound is no so bright like the Pepe's sound. The technique description is easy but to get a round sound is really complicate in a Pepe's falseta(may be impossible

). But you can apply it in as part of a ground rhythm of alegrias, for example.

A good friend of mine and good 'cantaor aficionado' who loves extremly the 'el cante puro' says always that flamenco 'students' forget two things: Flamenco, specially the 'puro', is a music of people that is not in a hurry and at the same time of peole who enjoy hearing the music. Boring exercises are excelent for the first but no good for the second.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 11:07:50

revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to jmb)

I see where you're coming from and seems like a i have rushed. I did basic patterns for a while but my brain was locked. Playing fuente y caudal even at 30bpm unlocked my brain because every progressive note is so perfectly composed which makes it more motivating to play but will be trying to go back to Manuel Granados technical study book.

I'm still having problems with jerking, I cant get the thumb to flick out instead of down, which jerks my hand and removes it from alignment. Both replies really helpful!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 12:37:31

revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

Cant speed up without making a mistake. No metronome.

This is what I mean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 16:51:12

jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

Think that for a Paco's interpreter that could understand that the flamenco guitar is just as a concert instrument a very easy tremolo falseta of solea could not be a great falseta, but for a true 'tocaor aficcionado' that loves accompaniment it is a wonderful falseta more in his repertorie that can made progress by his own in the future.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 17:01:27

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

I watched and listened to your post.

The first note of the tremolo (index) is very weak.

The ring finger note is the loudest.

You have to slow down, and practice in groups of 4 so the accent changes
every cycle to a different finger. Otherwise, it will continue to be uneven.

Don't just let the fingers glance over the strings. Play the tremolo notes the same
as you would a scale fragment or a melody. Use staccato just like in scale practice.
As soon as index plays, anular finger plants, etc..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 17:30:53

revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to jmb)

Your philosophy is much appreciated and personally admired, the hitano way is the only way!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 17:39:57

revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to ToddK)

I would like some clarification on this. When you say the accent changes does this mean that after the first thumb note, I make the index loudest in first set tremolo, then thumb then 2nd finger loudest in the next tremolo set, then thumb, then third finger loudest and then repeat the cycle? This sounds superhuman to me!

Also, to clarify, rock guitarists call it Tremelo right as opposed to classical Tremolo?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 17:42:47

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

Todd means just as an exercise. Group things into 4 so you always have to change the finger it begins on. P I A M rest I P I A rest M I P I rest etc...

Rock guitarists have a tremolo bar
Classical tremolo is 4 notes
Flamenco tremolo 5 notes (or more sometimes)

Your tremolo looks to be on its way though, I rest stroke the thumb though.......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 18:00:17

revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to Leñador)

Do you vary the speed of the tremolo to do rest strokes, it seems to take an extra split second away from the melody to do...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 18:25:44

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

No, thumb hits the note and goes to rest on the string below more or less simultaneously as the index goes up.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 19:15:50

revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

Love it when it gets technical.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 20:27:58

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

Make sure your nails are all producing even tone, sometimes one nail will be louder.

What do people think about practising stoccato?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2014 23:18:22

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

I did it. I practiced non-staccato too, can't say what helped more. One day I could just kinda do it.
I used to only be able to do it on the E string too, then one day I tried and I could do the B and G. Dunno when it happened but one day I was just able to.
My tremolo isn't the be all of clean playing though so take it for what it's worth. Lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2014 0:14:09

revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to Aretium)

I'm pretty sure the nail on my A finger forces a louder tone but I don't want to trim too much it because I like really loud and frequent golpes with that finger.

I think staccato definitely helps for tremolo and arpeggio to create a more mechanically precise movement. Particularly for the speed requirement of arpeggios in flamenco.

However, am yet to see the brilliant light of wisdom as described by Lenador, for what really works.

I also found an excellent video which answers my initial question at a very broad level.

I can't seem to understand how Paco gets a soft tremolo like below. I don't want to hear the individual tremolo notes, I prefer it like a continuous sound like in classical and how Paco and Pepe Habichuela does at (1:00).

I noticed that some people's tremolo is very clear like Paco Pena's and Tomatito/ Moraito Chico but this is not what I intend it to be. Is there a special way to angle your hand or distance which makes it sound like a blur, or is it lust practice?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2014 2:27:05

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

Here's an exercise I've been finding useful recently when warming up. Take some scale and play each notes 5 times before moving on to the next note, the fingering is iamip [pause] iamip [pause] iamip [pause] etc (with the meteronome clicking on the thumb). Playing thumb on the same string as the fingers feels hard to begin with, but it does help build technique - i.e. you learn to keep the thumb out the way of the fingers.

That exercise was my adaptation of what Grisha shows here
I prefer doing this with a 5 note tremelo instead of the 4 note pattern he uses here.

One thing I was taught (about 10 years ago by a student of Paco Pena), when doing slow tremelo exercises (i.e. not when playing your heart out), move each finger all the way into the palm of the hand. I guess this helps maintain a wide range of movement and ensure the fingers are not getting in the way of each other. These days I think I hardly ever practice with such an extreme range of movement as that - I'll have to give it a go again. Do the more advanced players here believe this is a good approach for beginners or intermediate level players?

Thanks Revendel for that "play tremelo like a boss" video - that Paco falsetta at the end has always felt too hard for me and he plays it with a lot of power - made me realise I need to practice more.

Good Luck with Fuente Y caudal!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2014 4:02:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

Well, IMO, if you want to do proper flamenco tremolo like Paco and others, it is not done like 5 even notes always practiced and learned etc like you are doing in your video. It has more of a phrase like a leading note gracing INTO a bass note....you can leave a pause and the fingers are like a drum roll in 4...like castañuelas for example. That way the apoyando bass note gives you security and a nice feeling to phrase and breath with the tremolo section. Eventually you can even improvise with the techniqe rather than study it so slow and precise each finger etc....and learning new tremolos becomes pretty quick and fun not so tedious. Anyway, it's like THIS:

http://youtu.be/s4od5cARAok

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2014 13:54:34

revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to Ricardo)

Practicing it like that and with alternate arrangements of tremolo fingers, 30min-1 hour a day. Hopefully by summer next year I should have it.

Anyone else have any other tricks, please do reply.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2014 14:17:17

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

Just noticing how flat Paco's wrist is when he does tremolo.

Everybody else i watch has a bent/round wrist.

I think you're confused as to what you think a clear or blurry tremolo is.

Paco has fluidity which comes from his constant adjustment of dynamics and the fact
that he plays it extremely evenly spaced, more than any other ive heard.

He's always adjusting his attack.

Take special note to what Amir talks about when he mentions the clear image in his
mind, and the fact that if you are clear and easy about it, it will come quickly, and not
take many years. Remember that guitar playing has much more to do with your brain than your fingers. Once you truly understand and believe that fact, you will move much more quickly and easily.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2014 17:15:46

revendel

Posts: 97
Joined: Dec. 27 2013

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to ToddK)

The flat wrist was my no1. concern for going 'hold on a sec, have I wasted the last few months with the wrong hand position?'.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2014 18:09:10

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Tremolo help (in reply to revendel)

quote:

Anyone else have any other tricks, please do reply.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a trick, but my flamenco instructor Paco de Malaga taught me to play a tremolo that really projects by using a strong thumb stroke, which almost automatically causes the IAMI strokes to strengthen as well. The result is a steady, strong tremolo that projects nicely.

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2014 20:12:08