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1950 Marcelo Barbero ex. Sanlucar
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: 1950 Marcelo Barbero ex. Sanlucar (in reply to Xavi)
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I suspect that Grisha could make a cigar box with rubber bands sound pretty good. That said, I think Sanlucar's Barbero sounds magnificent. Lots of flamenco brashness, yet sweet in the trebles when Grisha wants it to be.
There's a 1952 Barbero blanca for sale here.
http://tinyurl.com/m2hlegaFL
It has some repairs, and it's in Sweden, which may knock the price down a bit.
The 1951 Barbero that Sabicas recorded "Flamenco Puro" on was sold recently via the luthier/dealer Aaron Green. I don't know what it went for, but I suspect it was a lot higher price than the one in Sweden, since it is in better condition, and has about the most famous provenance imaginable.
When you get into the area of "collectibles" like Barberos, the market is very thin, and prices are volatile.
I was unsure about a classical that I tried, but I bought it, knowing I could flip it if I wanted to. Within a couple of weeks I was offered 25% more than I paid for it by a prospective buyer from Japan. I figured out how to play it and kept it. I still love it. My heirs can take the profit.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 23 2014 17:29:52
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: 1950 Marcelo Barbero ex. Sanlucar (in reply to Xavi)
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Hi Xavi-
Try this URL
http://tinyurl.com/m2hlega
The Arcangel is a blanca, muy flamenca. It's my all-time favorite flamenca. The classical I mentioned is a 1973 Romanillos, spruce/Indian. In Courtnall's book Romanillos is quoted as saying it took some pros a year to adjust to one of his instruments.
A well-known luthier who makes mainly classicals has posted on a variety of forums that he doesn't like Romanillos's instruments, complaining that they are too "trebly". When I received mine for a one-week trial, at first I thought there was something wrong with it. It was tinny sounding and quiet. The dealer, also a pro player, said it hadn't been played much in the last several years.
I played it a fair amount during the week, and began to feel and hear something I liked. I called the dealer and asked whether I could extend the trial period over a holiday weekend. He assented. After the weekend I bought the guitar, but as I said a significant factor was that I knew I could flip it for no loss, possibly even turn a profit. After a month I liked it better than any other classical I had played.
It does have a strong treble response. Careful right hand technique can take advantage of this to produce a very wide tonal range.
After a long layoff and some left hand numbness due a a pinched nerve from an old motorcycle wreck, I have been practicing for a couple of years. At age 76 progress is slow, but I'm still improving. I doubt I will ever have the speed I once had, but normal classical and flamenco repertoire are becoming possible, and I keep making progress.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 24 2014 0:12:29
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: 1950 Marcelo Barbero ex. Sanlucar (in reply to C. Vega)
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quote:
One well-to-do Japanese collector (whose name I don't recall and I'm too lazy to look it up) was so enamored with Arcangel's guitars that he built the Museo Arcangel Fernandez in Japan to show off his collection, hold concerts, etc.
And it's not just Arcangel's instruments but those of other makers who worked with him as well. In addition to Barbero's son, who worked with him for his entire career, there are guitars made by former Ramirez workers Manuel Caceres and Pedro C. Valbuena who both worked with Arcangel after leaving Ramirez and opening their own shops that are in demand. Caceres is still working and sells a significant portion of his production to the Japanese and Valbuena, who died in 2007, sold most of his output there as well which accounts for the scarcity of his instruments on this side of the pond and even in Spain. I recall seeing a full page color ad from a dealer in the Japanese magazine "Gendai Guitar" just for Valbuena's instruments while many people here and even in Europe know very little about him other than that he stamped his" P.C." initials in some Ramirez guitars way back when.
Guitars by Barbero hijo, Caceres and Valbuena sell for very high prices in Japan.
I approached a 'pro' guitarist who collects and sells Spanish guitars here in Japan. He was too snotty to talk. There is a great bias here with some people that a guitar has to be made by Spanish blood to be good. During the 1980's and up into the late 90's when Japans economy was strong against most other currency, was the time art and instrument collectors blitzed the international auctions to binrg all manner of art to Japan. Much of it is in bank vaults never to be seen. A lot of it is on display in museums, but they don't centralize these things. A guy who is rich who owns a chain of dept. stores might set up a museum of Tiddley Winks and Croquet balls if he likes to collect them, but they don't have the centrally located kind of donor/ museum patronage such as exists in the US and a few European countries. You have to travel around piece meal to see works by important artists.
The great instruments held by the foundations here do make it into the hands of real players, lot's of international concert artists are given loans from these collections. Not just Japanese artists, they loan to artists from other countries. But as far as guitars, there is a difficult road for anyone trying to get past the Spanish bias towards flamenco guitars.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Nov. 24 2014 0:37:44
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: 1950 Marcelo Barbero ex. Sanlucar (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
Same with wine: Chareaux Petrus is a good wine with a small production. It sold for 30, but people began to invest in wine and prices went to 400.
I used to work in France a fair amount. One of my colleagues was a wine enthusiast. He had done well in California Central Coast real estate. He owned shares in the fashionable small wineries in California, and had maybe 500 cases in his cellar. On one trip to Paris I went with him to one of the better known wine merchants. He was buying famous Burgundies. Just making small talk, my friend mentioned what he had paid in the 1950s while on his post-doctoral fellowship at Grenoble. The sales clerk exploded in fury, cursing rich Americans for having driven up the prices.
quote:
Nobody who is not a millionaire, should pay current prices for guitars of Reyes, Gerundino, Barbero etc. There are lots of good guitars out there for reasonable prices.
I agree.
I like the Romanillos a lot, but I play a spruce/Brazilian by the Mexican Abel Garcia at least as much. I paid more than 5 times as much for the Romanillos. It may be a good investment, but I don't plan to sell it any time soon. I also like the spruce/Brazilian Manuel Contreras Sr. "doble tapa" I bought from him in 1991.
The Arcangel is my favorite flamenca, but the '67 Ramirez 1a blanca remains my travel guitar. I really enjoy renewing its acquaintance. I think my wife paid $650 for it new, when she gave it to me. That would be around $3900 now, adjusted for inflation. A friend has a '73 Sobrinos de Esteso media luna that I think I would be quite satisfied with. He paid far less for it new than I did for the Arcangel, taking inflation into account.
There are plenty of wonderful guitars available from today's luthiers at reasonable prices. Collectors' items are just that. A high price is not a guarantee of a great instrument.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 24 2014 15:48:11
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: 1950 Marcelo Barbero ex. Sanlucar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
I have heard about the japaneese ideas about good flamenco guitars. Silly it is, but culture is culture and the japaneese have their ideas.
You see some of the same in the violin/cello world, where Italian is number 1, french is number two, german is number 3. It sounds like the freaking world cup.
I live in the country where the spanish blood guitars were/are made and there are very few good quality old instruments here. They were sold to the rich world before the Spanish got any money. And now that they are broke again, the rest is being sold.
Most of the old instruments you find are really beaten up.
Gerardo Nuñez found a Barbero in the dumpster some years ago, cleaned it up himself.
PC Valbuena I played several of those, not my favorite sound at all. Also I played Arcangel, only two I remember and they were negras...yuck. But I am well aware it's not good to judge on a hand full of examples. On the one hand, mark up helps the guitar market and luthiers in general. On the other, it's a shame "starving artists" don't always have a chance to own or even try some great vintage or top quality expensive instruments, to learn the real differences and develop tastes. My visit to Brune's museum shop was very interesting despite some people thinking that prices are only about the lable etc. I for one really appreciate the subtle difference of old top name makes that are only within the budget of millionares...at the same time I acknowledge the frightening reality that some factory cheap jobs are damn fine as well. In between that range there is something for everyone IMO, and I hope the small shop luthiers can find their deserved success despite all the options.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 24 2014 17:32:38
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 1950 Marcelo Barbero ex. Sanlucar (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
Nobody who is not a millionaire, should pay current prices for guitars of Reyes, Gerundino, Barbero etc. There are lots of good guitars out there for reasonable prices.
There are indeed lots of good guitars out there for reasonable prices. I have a Manuel Adalid Viviana flamenca blanca that has a wonderful sound and plays very well that I bought for US$2,500 in 2009. Nevertheless, I have a Gerundino flamenca blanca that the Manuel Adalid cannot match in terms of beautiful sound (particularly ringing trebles) and playability. With exceptions, there is still a difference between the top makers and the middle range. It may not matter in most cases, but the difference is there.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Nov. 24 2014 18:19:44
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: 1950 Marcelo Barbero ex. Sanlucar (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
I think I will go to Spain and get a complete blood transfusion and say I am now Spanish by blood.
I wouldn't think you would need a full transfusion, especially in Japan.
Years ago I met the president of the Black Ministers' Alliance in Norfolk, Virginia. We share a last name. The house, begun in 1635, of the eldest son of the eldest son, etc. of my earliest American ancestor is not far from Norfolk.
The minister said he was the descendant of house servants. They were taught to read and write and to do arithmetic, which was against the law before the Civil War. After the war his ancestor was still employed by the family. At Emancipation he took the family name. We agreed that we were almost certainly cousins, although somewhat removed.
He knew his ancestry pretty well. It was more distinguished than my American ancestry. He was descended from Thomas Jefferson through a Hemings grandmother. According to his data, he was no more than 1/16 African, but that was enough to make him officially Black in America.
He looked a bit like Eric Holder, the U.S. Attorney General.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 25 2014 19:03:26
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