Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expensive?
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
rojarosguitar
Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
|
 RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
|
|
|
Whether something is expensive or not is of course relative to your income... In terms of individually handbuilt instruments classical and flamenco guitars belong to the cheapest instruments that can be found.
A halfways decent hand made cello, violin or flute (which would be considered just enough to enter a conservatory) would be much more expensive than a flamenca built by the most expensive luthiers (I'm not talking about fancy collectors items, which obey totally different market laws).
A concert grade (soloist or orchestra) luthier built cello is probabely not to be had under 20.000 Euro (especially if it is made by any of the more known luthiers.
My friend Sebastian Stenzel, a quite well known luthier, asks for his guitars around 7000 Euros. He builds around ten per year. He not only uses highest grade materials which cost moey, but has to pay taxes, has to pay rent for his workshop, electricity, etc, pay all the incurances, and if he can't work because of illness, nobody is paying him anything... In the end he has quite an average income, I think ...
So the issue is more how much you want and can spend on something rather than stating these things are expensive... If somebody is serious about playing and needs a good instrument as the basis of their living, I would call that cheap.
Imagine how much you have to spend on maschines if you set up some kind of a workshop or whatever ...
_____________________________
Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 11 2014 7:47:28
 |
|
rletson
Posts: 8
Joined: May 25 2013
|
|
RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
|
|
|
Price reflects both demand and the cost of production. I don't have specific knowledge of the latter in the flamenco field, but I do have several friends who have built steel-strings for years, and what I heard from them was that there is about 100 hours of labor in a flat-top guitar, and substantially more in an archtop. So even before we get to cost of materials and overhead, you can see that a $3000 single-builder guitar pays the luthier $30/hour. This is why a $3000 flat-top is quite a bargain, and why so many builders have spouses with straight jobs (preferably with medical benefits) and/or also do repair and restoration work to keep the lights on. (And why the going price for a single-builder or even small-shop flat-top from an established builder is now well north of $4000. Check, say, James Goodall's prices.)
One of my friends finally quit building, after producing sixty-some instruments over an 22-year period, because it was not economically viable. "I just wanted to make a wage," he told me. But he couldn't, even though he produced very fine instruments. I did my part--I own two.
As I say, I'm anything but an authority on flamenco guitars, but I have played guitar-in-general for more than fifty years, and what I think I see in this subculture is a need for instruments with very particular qualities--a much narrower range of "what works" than, say, the folk-world steel-string flat-top or even the swing-world acoustic archtop. More like what the gypsy-jazz guys look for in a Selmer-style guitar. That's a pretty small target for a builder to hit, and a relatively small market to sell into at the pro and even the serious-amateur level. I suspect those factors have a non-trivial effect on prices.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2014 2:39:21
|
|
Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
|
|
RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
|
|
|
quote:
you can see that a $3000 single-builder guitar pays the luthier $30/hour.
Please!!!
When you make these fast and easy calculations, at least make it clear that guitarbuilders have expenses and not only wood.... Its not an office job. You have to pay wood, workshop, electricity, tools, contribute to social welfare etc. And besides building the instrument, there´s a lot of labour in keeping the business going. (contact with clients, economy, buying stuff, PR, you name it) The calculation ends up with far less than the $30/hour you mention. It actually ends up with a lousy wage.
To be honest, dont go in to this game because of money. There´s very little to be found, very little security and the furure is far from being bright. Only stupid, romantic persons like me end up being luthiers.....
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2014 7:43:22
|
|
Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
|
|
RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
|
|
|
quote:
it's a crazy black market of cash, at low rates for shoddy work and no taxes declared.
I got retrospective planning permission (for some obras menores) just by buying the mayor a drink.
Well, we didnt apply for permissions and noone cared. Sole was Spanish, she worked in another ayuntamiento so she knew how things were. Everything here works that way. So you could have saved that drink.
A typical story from here:
We needed to have have some new electrical installations and one of Sole´s collegues husband is an electrician, so they agreed.
He came, did a lousy job and on the bill he put twice the time he had used and 3 times the amount of material.... Sole told the collegue and she got pissed off and never talked to Sole again.... How lousy can people be.....
Spain is passing through a very negative moment. Its extreme this summer and autumn.. We are having corruption scandals all the time and it includes everyone. Right wing party, left wing party, union, builders, constructors, artists and even the kings sister and her husband are deeply involved in a big story.....
There´s a new scandal every week.
It just shows how everything has funcioned untill now. I dont know if they ever will be able to make it work better....
And at the same time during these 6 - 7 years of socalled crisis, the amount of very rich people is 2 to three times higher than what it was.
Spain is a complete chaos now. Where I live I estimate that unemployment is around 50%. And the politician talk about everything is going better. Shameless bastards.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 19 2014 22:22:42
|
|
jmb
Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain
|
|
RE: Why are flamenco guitars so expe... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
|
|
|
quote:
quote:
it's a crazy black market of cash, at low rates for shoddy work and no taxes declared.
I got retrospective planning permission (for some obras menores) just by buying the mayor a drink.
Well, we didnt apply for permissions and noone cared. Sole was Spanish, she worked in another ayuntamiento so she knew how things were. Everything here works that way. So you could have saved that drink.
A typical story from here:
We needed to have have some new electrical installations and one of Sole´s collegues husband is an electrician, so they agreed.
He came, did a lousy job and on the bill he put twice the time he had used and 3 times the amount of material.... Sole told the collegue and she got pissed off and never talked to Sole again.... How lousy can people be.....
Spain is passing through a very negative moment. Its extreme this summer and autumn.. We are having corruption scandals all the time and it includes everyone. Right wing party, left wing party, union, builders, constructors, artists and even the kings sister and her husband are deeply involved in a big story.....
There´s a new scandal every week.
It just shows how everything has funcioned untill now. I dont know if they ever will be able to make it work better....
And at the same time during these 6 - 7 years of socalled crisis, the amount of very rich people is 2 to three times higher than what it was.
Spain is a complete chaos now. Where I live I estimate that unemployment is around 50%. And the politician talk about everything is going better. Shameless bastards.
Spain has been always a 'cortijo' where clan concept prevail against community concept and wiliness has been the bad part of our culture for centuries but now, in the new Europe and in the New World, it does not work properly.
People that are not self-empoyed, potitician or public worker (and therefore financially controlled) are really tired. Time are changing and things are going to change and nobody knows if it the change will be for better or for worst.
_____________________________
Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!
Sing and string - other flamenco blog
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 20 2014 0:12:33
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.078125 secs.
|
Printable Version
