RE: Big favor please

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gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Escribano)

I will look into my dusty books and provide some exegesis of the source.

It is interesting, however, how all searches on Google seem to offer the same explanation for No Quarter, as a matter of "quartering" the prisoners. It is not the first time that the meaning of a word affects people's perception of its etymology.

We are such nurds...

Incidentally, unrelated to this thread but to the forum:
I am playing my blanca, constantly these days!

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 17:27:05

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Big favor please (in reply to gj Michelob)

I doubt that cuartel means anything related to quarter.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 17:34:44

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Escribano)

Amidst all of the suggested possibilities and etymology of the meaning of "Una guerra sin cuartel," from housing of prisoners to lack of barracks and headquarters, from the U.S. Navy call to General Quarters to the request for "quarter" in a duel, from the metaphorical to the concrete, within both the current and historical context the expression is and has been used, I still go with "War (or "Battle" or "Fight") without quarter, i.e. without mercy."

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 17:45:29

kenjo138

Posts: 114
Joined: May 29 2011

RE: Big favor please (in reply to n85ae)

Guerra sin cuartel is an expression that just means all out war.

Here is a translation that may sound better in English:

And he clawed with his nails
A child like a Lion
For there was a collapse
of a mine in Asturias
His father left inside

In my mind, the pride and love
They stuggle in my head
An all out war
Where death is non-existant
There exists but just a woman

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 18:05:40

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

Bill - I still go with "War (or "Battle" or "Fight") without quarter, i.e. without mercy."

No argument from me and I think that is where we are but I was further interested in the root of the phrase as etymology has always fascinated me. It's a mirror on the past.

quote:

Sr. Martins - I doubt that cuartel means anything related to quarter.

There is plenty of evidence that "cuartel" relates to "quarter" but it appears general opinion is divided on the etymology of the phrase.

I turned to Spanish and French to reverse the logic. The translations of an English song by Led Zeppelin (from Houses of the Holy) called "No Quarter":

English

"they choose the path where no-one goes.
they hold no quarter, they ask no quarter.
the pain, the pain without quarter.
they ask no quarter."

Spanish

"eligen el camino donde nadie va.
de ser titular sin cuartel, se preguntan sin cuartel.
el dolor, el dolor sin cuartel.
piden sin cuartel."

http://www.quaver.fm/cancion/no-quarter

French

"Ils choisissent le chemin où personne ne va.
Ils détiennent pas de quartier. Ils demandent pas de quartier.
La douleur, la douleur sans quartier.
Ils demandent pas de quartier."

http://les-paroles-de-chansons.com/chanson/montrer/889909/led-zeppelin/paroles-et-traduction-de-chanson-no-quarter-the-song-remains-the-same-1976/

Of course, the French "quartier" means a "quarter" or "slice" or "part of", but it also refers to a place e.g. le quartier St. Michel in Paris and it can mean a military barracks.

Interestingly, this non-academic opinion supports GJ's preference of asking for liberty for one quarter of the prisoners' worth:

quote:

"Voilà une expression reprise dans les films de pirates qui correspond à la réalité historique ! À l’époque, un prisonnier pouvait racheter sa liberté en payant un quartier de sa solde. Mais si l’ennemi refusait, il pouvait être traité sans quartier, c’est-à-dire être mis à mort. Ainsi, ordonner, avant l’abordage, « pas de quartier », signifiait qu’on ne faisait pas de prisonniers"

This Spanish reference translates "cuartel general" to "headquarters"
http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/cuartel

I have also read of a quarter of a prisoner's wealth being offered for liberty as "giving quarter" in medieval times, but no references earlier than the 1400s. Some of my knowledge of this goes back to studying Shakespeare, who reworked and invented lots of words and phrases, so that doesn't always help

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 18:50:19

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Big favor please (in reply to eg.czerny)

Jmb - I see now. I misunderstood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 18:55:07

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

I doubt that cuartel means anything related to quarter.

I am not qualified to agree or disagree with your view, as my Spanish leaves a lot to be desired. However, it would seem that the expression in its entirety
"Una guerra sin cuartel" translates the English linguistic locution "War without Quarter". Which in turn, regardless of which maybe its accurate etymology, stands for "fight without mercy".

And, above all, these lyrics are beautifully intense, as are the song and its singer.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 20:16:56

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Big favor please (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

It is interesting, however, how all searches on Google seem to offer the same explanation for No Quarter, as a matter of "quartering" the prisoners. It is not the first time that the meaning of a word affects people's perception of its etymology.

A little over a year ago I posted "In an adress to the Guild of American Luthiers, Richard Brune said civilization would end because the search engines return what people believe, not what is true."

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 20:20:36

jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Big favor please (in reply to kenjo138)

quote:

Guerra sin cuartel is an expression that just means all out war.

Here is a translation that may sound better in English:

And he clawed with his nails
A child like a Lion
For there was a collapse
of a mine in Asturias
His father left inside

In my mind, the pride and love
They stuggle in my head
An all out war
Where death is non-existant
There exists but just a woman

Oh it is a really nice translation!!!

The only word is love. In the versión of camarón he talks about "coraje", that's courage. This is a very special world in andalusian dialect.

Usually in Spanish "coraje" has the same meanin than in english. But in Andalucía it also means rage or anger ("me da coraje" = is make me furious). In this way it has an ambiguous sense.

With respect to cuartel, it is a very common word in Spanish. We had no professional army and rookies lived for long time in "cuarteles". There were thousand of them in Spain. As well as if you ask for the police called "Guardia Civil" you should ask for "El cuartel de la Guardia Civil", never for the Police Station of something similar. Guardia Civil are part of the army. The headquarter of the army is a building in the center of madrid where the Council of Generals works and is called "Cuartel General del Ejercito".

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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 20:31:44

kenjo138

Posts: 114
Joined: May 29 2011

RE: Big favor please (in reply to jmb)

The expression "Guerra sin cuartel" typically means that it is a war than cannot be contained or boxed in within the walls of a building, room or quarters. This translates into all out war, merciless war, war without limits, and so forth. They all have the same connotation. There is no literal translation.

The lyrics contain the word querer, not coraje. However, you are spot on with your explanation of coraje jmb. Courage is only one of the definitions of coraje. Some synonyms of the second meaning are furia, colera, rabia and ira. These translate to fury and rage.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 21:00:33

jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Big favor please (in reply to kenjo138)

Oh that's right! It is querer in this recording!. I was using the traslation of Escribano with coraje!

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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 21:55:47

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Big favor please (in reply to kenjo138)

quote:

The expression "Guerra sin cuartel" typically means that it is a war than cannot be contained or boxed in within the walls of a building, room or quarters. This translates into all out war, merciless war, war without limits, and so forth. They all have the same connotation. There is no literal translation.

Interesting idea but do you have any references for disagreeing with all the sources put forth so far?

There are plenty of translations into the English "without quarter" that make perfect sense, quite literal and well documented.

quote:

The lyrics contain the word querer, not coraje.

Aside from the published lyrics are you sure about that? My money would be on "coraje" in this version, but they do sound similar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 21:58:56

jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

quote:

The lyrics contain the word querer, not coraje.

Aside from the published lyrics are you sure about that? My money would be on "coraje" in this version, but they do sound similar

Jaja!!! It is querer in the recording Escribano. Be sure. but "Coraje" could be a very good variation. That kind of personal variations in oral transmission are usually done by singers and you did it!

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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 22:12:20

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Escribano)

Iam almost sure that cuartel in spanish means the same has quartel in portuguese, which is headquarters.

That's the reason Iam not buying into the quarter thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 22:13:49

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Big favor please (in reply to jmb)

quote:

It is querer in the recording Escribano. Be sure. but "Coraje" could be a very good variation. That kind of personal variations in oral transmission are usually done by singers and you did it

Then I shall become a singer and sing of the egg girl who left me for the truck driver, who was married with kids and lived next door. True story

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 22:14:26

kenjo138

Posts: 114
Joined: May 29 2011

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Cuartel does not mean headquarters unless you are speaking in the context of the military. Here are some uses of the word quartel:

vida de cuartel - army life; service life
estar de cuartel - to be on half-pay
cuarteles de invierno - winter quarters; winter retreat
cuartel general - headquarters
no hubo cuartel para los revoltosos - no mercy was shown to the rebels
no dar cuartel - to give no quarter; show no mercy;
guerra sin cuartel - all out war
lucha sin cuartel - fight to the death

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 22:27:45

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Big favor please (in reply to kenjo138)

quote:

Cuartel does not mean headquarters unless you are speaking in the context of the military.

I thought it had something to do with a military context since it's "una guerra.."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 22:54:24

jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Belive me.

Usually (and in this expression) CUARTEL means a military site or building that is not the major.

If it is the major site, it is "Cuartel General"= head-quarter. "Una guerra sin cuartel"would be a war where there are not defensive positions.

A classical 'cuartel' de la Guardia Civil in Spain.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 23:17:04

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Big favor please (in reply to jmb)

I kept the word "headquarter" to put it into a military context.

What do we call (in english) a "headquarter" that is not the main (head) one? Don't tell me it's "quarter"...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 5 2014 23:41:48

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

Then I shall become a singer and sing of the egg girl who left me for the truck driver, who was married with kids and lived next door. True story

Actually, Simon, that has the makings of a novel that might be shortlisted for the Man-Booker Prize. I say that because I brought with me to read during my stint here in Samoa this year's Man-Booker winner, "The Narrow Road to the Deep North," by Richard Flanagan, an Australian author from Tasmania. The story concerns an Australian army doctor who, with his fellow Australian army personnel, was interned by the Japanese on Java and taken to Thailand to work on the infamous Thai-Burma "death" railroad (the River Kwai, and all that). It is a story of grit and endurance against Japanese atrocities and cruelty, interspersed with Japanese Haiku poetry written by a Japanese army Major.

Nevetheless, at least half of the novel concerns the doctor's pre-war dalliance with his uncle's wife. It seems to haunt him, wherever he is: Getting ready to deploy to Java, during his captivity as a POW by the Japanese, and after surviving the war and returning to Australia. His pre-war moving in on his uncle's wife appears to have marked him for life. It seems a bit much to me, given what he endures as a POW of the Japanese in Thailand. I would rate the book interesting but not great. The writing is good, though. Obviously the Man-Booker committee members were very much taken by it.

Anyway, your experience with the egg-girl and the truck driver shows literary promise.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2014 0:00:26

kenjo138

Posts: 114
Joined: May 29 2011

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Yes. I misspoke. I do believe quartel is mostly used in a military context. Nevertheless, quartel general translates into headquarters. See translations and usage above.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2014 2:11:55

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Big favor please (in reply to Escribano)

I found a couple of Italian dictionaries that clarify the meaning of the expression, "Without Quarter" as deriving from the ancient dueling rule that allowed the loser to exchange a quarter of his salary to have the winner spare his life.
http://www.dizionario-italiano.it/linguamadre/articolo.php?art=267
http://dizionari.corriere.it/dizionario-modi-di-dire/Q/quartiere.shtml

On the other hand, the word "quarter" referring to the accommodations of certain military ranks, as in "Head Quarter", derives from the Ancient Roman organization of field camps and forts, divided as they were in 4 quarters, each allocated to different military ranks and services.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2014 15:47:27

kenjo138

Posts: 114
Joined: May 29 2011

RE: Big favor please (in reply to gj Michelob)

Great find. The word cuartel in Spanish also has a close relation to a fourth part of a whole. For example, each of the four sections of a coat of arms is called a cuartel. Cuartel also refers to police headquarters. It also refers to military barracks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2014 4:25:45