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Newbie question: 650 or 640?   You are logged in as Guest
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Me encanta Moraito Chico

 

Posts: 1
Joined: Sep. 18 2014
 

Newbie question: 650 or 640? 
Hi to all @ foroflamenco.

I have a question as a total beginner wishing to start with Flamenco guitar.

I was considering a Primera Negra, however I have read that according to some like for example classical guitar Luthier Renato Bellucci, If the distance between the tip of your thumb and the tip of your little finger is equal or less than 9 in (230 mm). when fully stretched, use 640 mm.
Is it really the case? It appears that some think so whereas other disagree. Is this advice as relevant to flamenco as it is for classical guitar.
Unfortunately it appears that most Flamenco guitars are produced either at a 650 scale (student, pro) or 660 (concert). Some luthiers produce 640 as a special request only. In addition according to some the sound of a 650 scale is a bit more powerful than with a 640 scale.

There was a previous thread on foroflamenco about the same subject but it appears that in the case discussed the tip to thumb distance measurements were less close to 23 cm.
I’m more on the borderline and therefore any advice would be truly appreciated.

My hands measures:
Thumb to pinky = 223 mm (strectched to the extreme…)
Index to pinky = 165 mm

Related posts for classical guitar:
http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=36118

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=64592
http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=36118&start=90
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2014 20:20:38
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
FWIW...

My hands:

Thumb to pinky = 225 mm
Index to pinky = 186 mm


I play guitars that I didn't even knew they had different scale lenghts. I also play electric guitar, mandolin, double bass, fretless electric bass...

My point is that I notice when I switch instruments, not because of 10mm or 10cm in scale lenght but because they are different instruments.


Hope this helps

BTW, the few milimeters you might gain in scale lenght you can easily lose with the shape of the back of the neck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2014 21:03:59
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
Thumb to pinky-215
Index to pinky - 152

Woah, my fingers are short. I think I have a 655 and 658 guitar. I find the 655 one harder to stretch tho.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2014 22:37:24
 
bernd

 

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
Hi Moraito aficionado:

When I had started flamenco in 1993 I tried some 640 scale blancas. They all sounded clearly weak or as you say less powerful. Because of my small hands it´s not possible for me to use any bigger than 650, but I don´t want a 640 scale.

I never took attention to recomendations of things like finger length or stretching distance. It´s always better to know your own limits.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2014 22:39:12
 
bernd

 

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RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to HolyEvil) 
Corresponding to the given advice I´m recomendet to use a 640 scale length, but I never had any problems using 650 mm.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2014 22:49:11
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
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RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Me encanta Moraito Chico

Is it really the case? It appears that some think so whereas other disagree. Is this advice as relevant to flamenco as it is for classical guitar.

I watched Manuel Lopez-Ramos play incredibly difficult pieces in my living room many times on a 660mm scale guitar. His hands were what I would call tiny. Even Segovia who had fairly short fingers and small hands by American standards used a 664mm scale. The difference between 650mm and 660mm is less than 1/8" spread over the entire fingerboard. Put a capo on the first fret and you've more than compensated for any difference in scale length. Longer scales make better guitars (my opinion). Don't get hung up on scale length it really is pretty much meaningless.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2014 22:54:57
 
rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
You have to take the setup into account. If the setup is not great, then the 10 mm difference between 650 & 640 makes sense, especially if you have joint problems like in my situation. You are playing guitar for fun I would assume, and therefore you need to make sure that this is not something that will cause you injuries (at least in my opinion). I suggest you try two guitars that have a good setup & they differ mostly in their scale length. Then, you will be able to figure things out. Even if you have a 640 mm which does not have a comfortable setup, I think you will notice that you can reach things a bit more easily than with a 650 mm if your hands are of certain dimensions.

At the end of the day, it is all about being able to play in a healthy fashion, or else injuries will thwart your journey...

Cheers!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 0:31:20
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
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RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
There is no formula for measuring your hands and coming up with an ideal scale length. That is just a sales pitch Belluci made up. It has nothing to do with the reality of how your hands as an individual work. There is no 'One Size Fits All' formula for hand size to scale length selection.

People with smaller hands can play quite long scale lengths without injuries and reach difficulties with the right technique and relaxation. And players with large hands can play smaller scales.

Not all of the considerations that go into choosing a long or short scale guitar have to do with hand size. And just because a guitar has a shorter scale does not mean it will be easier for you to play. It varies from guitar to guitar. Often times short scale guitars are not as effective for flamenco.

Two areas in guitar selection that are constantly misunderstood are neck size and scale length. Thinner necks and shorter scales in themselves do not add up to easier less stressful to play guitars. Thicker necks and longer scales can actually be easier to play even for small hands.

Speaking generally, those who tell you shorter scales will be less stressful and less prone to injure you are giving incorrect information. Any guitar, regardless of scale length, will injure you if you play while holding stress in your body and react to the stress by gripping the guitar too tightly or tensing up your body. And the opposite is also true; You can play quite along scale guitars with small hands and be quite healthy if you play with relaxation and good technique.

It's not your hand size vs. scale length that protects you from being injured!

It's your attention to relaxation and mindful technique that keeps you in the game.

__________________________________

I recommend a 650 to 655 scale guitar and that you take lessons from a teacher who understands how to keep you playing with relaxation and stress free technique. That way you will learn to stay healthy from the beginning. The small difference between 640 mm a 650 scale will not save you from injury if you play while holding stress.

Not as many other players will want a 640 guitar and may be difficult to resell. If you learn to play a 650 scale you will have ten times as many guitars to choose from and you will be able to sell it when you decide to swap it for another one.

Remember that scale length preferences are also trend based. The open market moves back and forth over the years and long or short scales cycle in and out of favor. In the classical market there are other considerations besides injury or hand size to select a short scale guitar so it may be easier to resell a 640 or 630 scale in that market, but in flamenco anything below 650 will be unusual even in the climate of long and short scale cycling in and out of favor.


As a beginner you will change your mind about scale length later as your musical goals come into stronger focus. Don't lock yourself into one unchangeable idea about scale.

My two cents.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 1:08:31
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
I am with Ramzi on this.

Segovia who had large paws ( just check out on YT) contributed to a standard that obviously suits people larger than average.

Secondly, 640 mm guitars are being experienced as rather more articulate than less ( which I can only confirm in view of my experience with parlor guitars). What they could be delivering less would be LF, however marginally. The negative comments you see here seem only classical refusal against the unconventional.

I have not experienced a 640 mm scale length myself yet, but I know that Andy Culpepper was positively surprised when he built his first one. You might ask him, also about hypothetical drawbacks.

Ruphus

PS:
Is Renato now acting as / being a luthier?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 2:20:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
Play whatever it is you can play on a BASS GUITAR for an afternoon...then you will realize how freaking ridiculous it is to think it matters if the guitar is 648 mm (Hauser) or 670 mm (Sobrinos de esteso).

Next play whatever it is you can play on a ukelele.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 3:52:35
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
Yup, I go to GSI, Guitar Center(I know) Trilogy guitars and play all kinds of guitars and I never ask or know what the scale is, I know for a fact just from looking afterwards on the website that I've loved guitars from scales all over the map…..

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 4:32:57
 
hopkinWFG

 

Posts: 57
Joined: Jun. 10 2012
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
i think 650mm scale is just small differences compare to 660mm? i played a 27" 7 string electric guitar and its noticeable and still manageable as you have to put more effort in it.. i guess 660mm will sound better as told same with electric guitar as it be clearer and have more attack? a 660mm is just slightly smaller than a 26' scale electric guitar... to be precise its just 25.9" take up 660mm scale length would be better choice i guess... i am east asian of smaller build
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 7:17:27
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
Dont go shorter than 650. If you do, all other guitars will feel big.

Besides that, scale length is about 0,1% importance when it comes to sound and playability. There are so many other things that matters a LOT more.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 7:21:40
 
rojarosguitar

Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
The neck width and shape is more important for the playing comfort than scale length. I would always go for the longer neck, as long as I can manage. I have two classical guitars with 660 and this is never a problem (my hands are not small but also not very big). All 640 guitars I have played also sounded 'smaller'. Just IMHO...

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A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 7:21:47
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Segovia who had large paws ( just check out on YT) contributed to a standard that obviously suits people larger than average.


Simply not true. His hands appear large due to the diameter of his fingers. There is a book with a lifesize picture of Segovia's hand so people can compare. My fingers are much longer. I shook Segovia's hand once and felt the size compared to my hands and was surprised. I did say small by American standards.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 14:35:56
 
estebanana

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RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
John, Ricardo & Anders and Lenadpr and all the others who advocate longer scales have the best info on this subject........just saying.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 15:25:27
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
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RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
You must be having the best info though, Sahib; that ought to be how you know about making a fatwa.
-

And the guys in the classical realm of whom I read from how they came to appreciate 640 mm ( some selling all their standard sized guitars to switch towards shorter scale) must have been pinheads.
- Worse even with their findings about great sound ( probably with smaller plantillas).

They better had asked some specialist who could have told them that their expertise with years of playing and many fine guitars was fata morgana.

Ruphus

PS:
From the objections made, I found only one plausible; which was Anders´ warning that short scale will be alienating standard proportions to you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 15:59:36
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
I'm with all those on this thread advocating that you ditch the idea of a 640 scale and go for a longer scale. I would go for 650 or 655. In addition to the good reasons already advanced, with practice and exercises your hand's ability to stretch and reach all required frets will increase to the point where it will no longer feel like an effort.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 17:08:36
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
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RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to BarkellWH) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

... with practice and exercises your hand's ability to stretch and reach all required frets will increase to the point where it will no longer feel like an effort.

Bill


Right.

And what would be the sense of it, if the scales you recommend were to be ergonomically suiting people considerably larger than the person you are recommending to?

What if common dimensions of production were actually fitting individuals of say from 185 cm upwards? What use ( other than choice from standard size) for smaller folks in adapting to oversize?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 17:45:15
 
bernd

 

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to BarkellWH) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

I'm with all those on this thread advocating that you ditch the idea of a 640 scale and go for a longer scale. I would go for 650 or 655. In addition to the good reasons already advanced, with practice and exercises your hand's ability to stretch and reach all required frets will increase to the point where it will no longer feel like an effort.

Bill

I disagree. Stretching excercises are no guarantee for having no problems with small hands. My former 1969 Gerundino had a scale of 667 mm. After a few months my extensors started to ache seriously after between 30 to 45 minutes. So I needed to stop playing. Using any 650 scale guitar there were no problems at all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 17:56:36
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to bernd) 
quote:

I disagree. Stretching excercises are no guarantee for having no problems with small hands.


Of course, nothing is ever "guaranteed." But I know of enough examples of those who had trouble reaching and stretching to make some chords who, with practice and exercises, were able to bridge the gaps and play without difficulty. Although I have average-sized hands, I occasionally have had difficulty "reaching" to make some chords, but practice made all the difference.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 19:00:56
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

And what would be the sense of it, if the scales you recommend were to be ergonomically suiting people considerably larger than the person you are recommending to?


Your key phrase "considerably larger" appears meant to bolster your case for the 640 scale. We are not talking about midgets, dwarfs, or six-year olds here. We are talking about someone who might have a slightly smaller than average hand. In such a case, it is likely (although not "guaranteed"--see my post above) that practice and exercise would render the hand supple enough to make the reach across the required frets. I have seen such examples and they worked out, particularly with a 650 to 655 scale.

The value of such an approach is that one could rely on standard sized guitars, and not have to depend on having specially-built models.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 19:10:07
 
bernd

 

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to BarkellWH) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

I disagree. Stretching excercises are no guarantee for having no problems with small hands.

Although I have average-sized hands, I occasionally have had difficulty "reaching" to make some chords, but practice made all the difference.


How do you define "average-sized hands" compared to what? What does "reaching to make some chords" mean concretely? What sort of chords?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 19:38:55
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to bernd) 
quote:

I disagree. Stretching excercises (sic) are no guarantee for having no problems with small hands. ... How do you define "average-sized hands" compared to what? What does "reaching to make some chords" mean concretely? What sort of chords? /quote]


How do you define "small hands"? Compared to what? How do you define "guarantee"? As an absolute that one can count on in every case? Or as something that works in the majority of cases? What does a "problem" mean concretely? Something that is difficult to overcome? Or something that can never be overcome?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 20:07:21
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
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RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
Good old foro flamenco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 20:15:18
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
Manolo Sanlucar has hands smaller then my Vietnamese girlfriend and he doesn't appear to have any issues.......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 20:22:13
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
Therin lies the crux.
That it can be done does not equal optimal conditions yet.

And you seem to not be counting in the `additional benefit´or should I better say `lack of obstacle´when an instrument is sized either perfectly or at least nearly optimal.

Whether achieved well or less perfect: The value of adopting to unsuiting proportions really only is that
quote:

one could rely on standard sized guitars, and not have to depend on having specially-built models.


Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 20:36:54
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:

Manolo Sanlucar has hands smaller then my Vietnamese girlfriend and he doesn't appear to have any issues.......


No doubt. Exercises and practice and, as Stephen points out above, relaxation and good technique are more important than hand-size and scale length in most cases.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 20:38:50
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

Therin lies the crux. That it can be done does not equal optimal conditions yet.


Moraito requested opinions on scale length, Ruphus. I gave him my opinion based on my experience. You offered your opinion. I am not going to get into a debate with you over your definition of "optimal ergonomics" in scale length. Your position is clear, and so is mine.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 20:51:25
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Newbie question: 650 or 640? (in reply to Me encanta Moraito Chico) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH


No doubt. Exercises and practice and, as Stephen points out above, relaxation and good technique are more important than hand-size and scale length in most cases.

Bill



And walking on stilts is more important than jumping when wanting to replace a bulb. No doubt.


But Laotse in his household tips says:
"What is it good for to mess around with laths as long as you can have a table lamp instead."


Ruphus

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2014 20:53:21
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