Ring finger nail... "ringing"

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gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

Ring finger nail... "ringing"

True to its name, my ring finger [A] nail seems to have a thinner, ringing sound, not as rich and compact as that of my I and M.

I arpeggio with all P+ AMI and would like to improve my ring finger tone. I appreciate it depends on the shape of my nail and the angle at-or the manner in which- I pluck the string.

Among the learned musicians here, can someone make any suggestion on how to either shape the nail or shift the angle... successfully?

Than you.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 21:46:38

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

I am sure you will get lots of great advice about nail shape, string choice and so forth.

But the best advice I ever got was ' Stroke the string like you would stroke a woman'

....... or a cat even.

The guitar is a percussive instrument but a nail or a plectrum is like a tiny bow and you stroke the string, you feel the string.

And when you allow yourself to really feel the string then there is no surprise in the sound that comes out.

Stroke is a good word.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 22:36:32

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

But the best advice I ever got was ' Stroke the string like you would stroke a woman'

....... or a cat even.

Than you, dear GB.
I completely agree with the proverbial aphorism you quoted.

However, at the risk of sounding a bit conceited, my "stroke" really is caress-like, because I am (unreasonably) obsessed with tone. But because of such obsession, I hear the ever so slight disparity between the tone I achieve with I & M and that with A.

Now, I see that if I further turn my hand, having my A's perfectly parallel to and facing the string, then the tone is equalized. But this exercise comes with a risk of tendinitis as it represents a great departure from the right hand position I held for the last quarter of a century.

I suppose there must be some less traumatic adjustment I could implement, and hopefully simply affecting how I shape my nails.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 22:52:27

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

GB....

scroll down on the various pics on this site. Is that how we ought to shape our nails?
http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/fingernails-on-classical-guitar/

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 22:55:58

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

Hi JG.

I love the bow analogy, I like to think of long and short stroke and the speed of the bow.

I wish you were here, words fail. Maybe try and find all the massive variety that you can with that one finger at any single chosen angle. Different 'speeds' of release and follow through. Scales and melodies with just the A finger, go for a 'dolce' sound at a ponticello position.

Sometimes half the battle is just learning to enjoy the sounds we can produce, and the listener will follow.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 23:02:49

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Sometimes half the battle is just learning to enjoy the sounds we can produce, and the listener will follow.

You "stroke" the "nail" right on the head, my friend,... do you hear the "ring" ????

[Note: Those puns you read are indeed meticulously selected, premeditated and therefore intended]

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 23:25:32

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

You "stroke" the "nail" right on the head, my friend.

Yup just a few times, to feel the weight of the hammer and to gain a clear idea of the altitude and attitude of the nail head. So that when I strike in earnest the follow through hits home. Because sometimes if things are not ideal and if the angle is not perfect and I strike before feeling my way or in the same precise way as the last nail then the nail buckles and the recoil can be jarring on the hand.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 23:51:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

GB....

scroll down on the various pics on this site. Is that how we ought to shape our nails?
http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/fingernails-on-classical-guitar/

as I play more "straight on" to the strings, the ring finger nail I use has more material on the LEFT side than the right (exact opposite of the pictured ramp). My middle finger is more straight across and the index indeed as the one pictured. So they ramp i m a like this / / / and I ramp like this /- \. Because of the wrist and angle of attack I imagine. I don't know how you play so all I can say is experiment.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 23:53:30

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

GB....

scroll down on the various pics on this site. Is that how we ought to shape our nails?
http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/fingernails-on-classical-guitar/

Sorry, I missed that post.

I looked through it now and from the pics I think that the plant demonstrated is way too shallow for my liking. I like a bit more flesh in front of the nail.

But that is entirely my opinion. Lots of people play terrifically with profoundly different nail shapes and wrist angles. I think that what they have in common is sensitivity in the moment to what feels right at the instant the string is struck.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 10 2014 23:59:54

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

as I play more "straight on" to the strings, the ring finger nail I use has more material on the LEFT side than the right (exact opposite of the pictured ramp). My middle finger is more straight across and the index indeed as the one pictured. So they ramp i m a like this / / / and I ramp like this /- \. Because of the wrist and angle of attack I imagine. I don't know how you play so all I can say is experiment.

I am so glad and relieved you wrote that, Ricardo, because I was afraid I had it all wrong. I will experiment with a more focused shape of the nail. Thank you.

GB, you bring up another good point, and like that of Ricardo, quite refreshing:
"Lots of people play terrifically with profoundly different nail shapes and wrist angles. I think that what they have in common is sensitivity in the moment to what feels right at the instant the string is struck."

As i said, I will experiment, but knowing that my right hand angle is not in blatant contravention of any dogma of guitar faith... I don't feel as dumb as I did when I asked the question.

Hasta luego, amigos, y muchissimas gracias

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 4:24:56

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

Still, what remains is that in dependence of how you plant there will be a single most accomodating nail shape.
You can duplicate that shape by "playing" your file.

Once you have shortened nails roughly to where you like them in general, hold the file horizontally as if it was a strings and let your finger tips hit and brush it like when playing the guitar.
It will let you feel where exactly the protruding section is that causes the brittle tone that you dislike, and you can then "play it away" on the file.
Then give it a final smoothing with your flexible buffer and enjoy the slipping with only final nail edge.
-

Regarding technique, I have observed that spaying out considerably enhances less suitable planting. From there, watching out for I,M,A to stay laterally close to each other ( which they will if only there be no lateral apparatus engaged. And that again will usually be the case at trying to bypass the string untouched on return, whilst a rectangular posture however keeps your returning finger on collision course) and basically being well lined up behind each other helps the fingers with retaining a planting angle that will allow sliding and well dosed flesh ramp.

May that help, Giacomo. :O)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 10:21:08

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Still, what remains is that in dependence of how you plant there will be a single most accomodating nail shape.
You can duplicate that shape by "playing" your file.

Once you have shortened nails roughly to where you like them in general, hold the file horizontally as if it was a strings and let your finger tips hit and brush it like when playing the guitar.
It will let you feel where exactly the protruding section is that causes the brittle tone that you dislike, and you can then "play it away" on the file.
Then give it a final smoothing with your flexible buffer and enjoy the slipping with only final nail edge.
-

Regarding technique, I have observed that spaying out considerably enhances less suitable planting. From there, watching out for I,M,A to stay laterally close to each other ( which they will if only there be no lateral apparatus engaged. And that again will usually be the case at trying to bypass the string untouched on return, whilst a rectangular posture however keeps your returning finger on collision course) and basically being well lined up behind each other helps the fingers with retaining a planting angle that will allow sliding and well dosed flesh ramp.

May that help, Giacomo. :O)

A solid and helpful post, indeed. Thank you dear Ruphus.

I particularly like your tip on "playing" the file to identify the section of the nail responsible for the undesired tone. I will certainly try.

I am afraid I generally file my nails in a fashion that is geometrically uniform, as these things are already "offensive" to the general public, I can't imagine the reaction when they start pointing different directions

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 14:11:58

Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

You are very welcome! :O)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 14:44:01

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

My fingers each 'attack' the string at slightly different angles during pima.

If you haven't already tried this: I place the file along the first string and 'play'. This cuts a little of the 'shape of the attack' into the nail and seems to equalize the sounds of each string. (Of course, the nail has to be buffed after.)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 16:05:22

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to z6)

quote:

My fingers each 'attack' the string at slightly different angles during pima.

If you haven't already tried this: I place the file along the first string and 'play'. This cuts a little of the 'shape of the attack' into the nail and seems to equalize the sounds of each string. (Of course, the nail has to be buffed after.)

Another good tip, thank you sir.

We might considering setting up an online "nail salon"...

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 16:13:13

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

Among the learned musicians here, can someone make any suggestion on how to either shape the nail or shift the angle... successfully?

I can't claim to be among the "learned musicians", but like z6 I put a nail file over the 1st string and play on it to mark where I need to file the nail, and I get a resulting shape similar to the one Ricardo describes, index angled one way, ring the other, and middle more or less flat (actually mine is angle slightly the same way as index, but the angle is almost flat).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2014 22:48:48

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

There is also an other factor. The closer you plug a string to the bridge, the thinner/sharper it's sound will be and since your a-finger is positioned slightly closer to the bridge then the other fingers it generates a noticeable different sound as well. The closer your hand is to the bridge, the more audible the small distance between the fingers becomes. You could choose to plug the strings a bit closer to the sound hole where the difference is less audible. You can also choose to narrow down the distance between the fingers a bit which involves a slightly different way of positioning your hand/plugging the strings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 0:33:58

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

I can't claim to be among the "learned musicians", but like z6 I put a nail file over the 1st string and play on it to mark where I need to file the nail, and I get a resulting shape similar to the one Ricardo describes, index angled one way, ring the other, and middle more or less flat (actually mine is angle slightly the same way as index, but the angle is almost flat).

Thank you, Mark, this is really the point. I hadn't realized how critical my IMA asymmetric directions really are, until Ricardo pointed out the issue. So, I followed the filing procedure with an immediate and significant improvement.

Erik, point well taken regarding the effect of playing in proximity to the bridge or sound hole, and how each will affect sound and tone, the former emphasizing a thinner, and the latter a warmer tone.

As always, this forum is quite a resource, and I am grateful for the prompt and helpful replies.

Thanks, y'all.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 15:09:15

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

Great to hear of a speedy resolution.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 12 2014 16:29:21

Hasan

Posts: 17
Joined: Aug. 24 2013
From: Kuwait

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

Thanks for starting this question, and thanks for all for this great tips.
I am facing exactly the same issue and this all tips are really helpful

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2014 12:49:46

MarcChrys

Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

Thanks for raising this. I experience a similar issue. Not sure whether I call it 'ringing' more like 'clicking'? My ring finger nail doesn't strike the strings as substantially or as cleanly as the index or middle (or even my little finger). My theories are a) that, because my ring finger is smaller in length, I tend to grow the nail a bit longer and maybe that makes it a bit flimsier? theory b) the alignment of the fingerhead (not sure if that's a real word!) is less perpendicular than the other fingers? So maybe I need to experiment with nail filing (like Ricardo, I would think having more nail on the left hand side would help - rather than having an opposite rightward leaning ramp) or altering hand position (turning hand towards bridge slightly to create more of a perpendicular straight-on attack)?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 14 2014 14:42:43

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to Ricardo)

A good video illustrating the nail shaping technique:

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 21:09:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

A good video illustrating the nail shaping technique:

except his playing position and tone are at exact odds with flamenco style.

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2014 12:59:49

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

except his playing position and tone are at exact odds with flamenco style.

Well, of course, but the French gentleman is quite adamant in his disclaimer about the importance of placing guitar and hands in the exact position one adopts for his style of playing when following the proposed technique.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2014 14:26:02

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

GJ,
David Russell has a little book of advices ("consejos") floating around the internet. One of them is that the a finger requires a different angle than the others, a slight rotation of the hand. It seems a rather untidy and inefficient way to address the problem. We have this idea of the hand staying in one absolutely still position, and are horrified by the concept of having to deviate from this perfect, ergonomic place for a slight advantage in tone for a single finger. But David Russell is a man quite as obsessed with tone as you! Perhaps it will be worth it for you. A slight pronation of the forearm while playing the a finger rounds it out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2014 16:31:56

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

GJ,
David Russell has a little book of advices ("consejos") floating around the internet. One of them is that the a finger requires a different angle than the others, a slight rotation of the hand. It seems a rather untidy and inefficient way to address the problem. We have this idea of the hand staying in one absolutely still position, and are horrified by the concept of having to deviate from this perfect, ergonomic place for a slight advantage in tone for a single finger. But David Russell is a man quite as obsessed with tone as you! Perhaps it will be worth it for you. A slight pronation of the forearm while playing the a finger rounds it out.

Thank you, Miguel, I found the text, in Spanish, yet clear enough.
I agree that there is no such a thing as an "unmovable" right hand position. Moving the hand, by anchoring the thumb over the E string or anchoring a finger to the sound board for certain effects, facilitates playing and adds to the tone and color of the notes.

I broke my nails recently, and am starting growth from scratch; so I am experimenting with Rico nails. I tried the technique suggested in the video, and it does help to smooth the edges in the appropriate points.

Ah... nails... sometimes I really wish we could play with a bow, instead...

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 5 2014 14:33:49

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

True to its name, my ring finger [A] nail seems to have a thinner, ringing sound, not as rich and compact as that of my I and M.

Keep working on the nail shape, and playing angle, but don't over analyze it.

It will work itself out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2014 3:35:00

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Keep working on the nail shape, and playing angle, but don't over analyze it.

It will work itself out.

Words of pure wisdom; I find that this formula applies to many things in life. Thank you for reminding me of it, ToddK.

I am afraid, it is now my turn to be the idiot looking at the finger ... when the master points to the moon -remember this long and protracted exchange over the legendary Bruce Lee's proverb, on another forum?

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2014 3:29:50

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

To which, for matter of general interest, I would like to add that among animals the only species who can understand finger pointing is the dog. Over long companionship with men, it has learned to see the moon one may be pointing to.
-

Seen contextually, something many people still don´t master, indeed. ( Beheading couriers still.)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2014 8:18:51

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Ring finger nail... "ringin... (in reply to gj Michelob)

I too, have spent who knows how much time and energy obsessing about nails, getting acrylics, making my own with pieces of fabric and superglue (but only fresh superglue, treat it like food, right?), different types of picks, ping pong balls, different lengths, files of glass, of metal, of a variety of grades, and of course the elusive finest grade of sandpaper for final finishing. Time was, I'd file flat, file angled, file round, do the Duncan thing.

Now I use my natural nails and just kind of round them off, smooth them with the fine sandpaper, and go with it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 8 2014 14:59:36