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RE: Let's have a conversation about Women participants and and the Foro
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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 Fear not! (in reply to estebanana)
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Dispute is feared by a mislead understanding of harmony. A phenomenon greatly inflated by a Hollywood tradition of displaying agreement through "perfect harmony".
In fact, in oudated ( yet still alive and major) culture unable to pragmatically dispute / always at the risk of irrational outcome and escalation the fear of controversial discussion is only understandable.
Yet, the fancying of actual harmony to arise from appeasement remains wrong.
Instead fearless and rational dispute is valuable precondition for authentic trust and harmony.
However, common sense ( largely still even in modern society) is still such shying away and fearing dispute that it will literally halicunate when even just witnessing controversy.
And from there with its emotional panicking it cannot intellectually tell apart conclusive context / discourse of congruency, from mere pigheaded being / disrespect to a matter.
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Don´t fear dispute, folks. Not anymore in this time and age, and centuries after people used to think that physical defeat was equalling being in the right.
Questioning and controversy are the essentials of any intellectual and emotional advance. It has brought to us all that we have as sobriety and science.
And if you enjoy a real friendship, then you should be familiar with a strong boundary that comes from trust in fairness and from fearlessness from dispute.
Read one of the lectures that once made me erringly confident that we would be greatly advancing with dispute culture before the new millenia. ( And there seemed some progress then indeed, at least with the avantgarde and subculture, which however appears to have vastly degenerated again.)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Intimate-Enemy-George-Bach/dp/0380001861
Long live controversy and intelligent dispute!
Let it occure, and appreciate it.
Ruphus
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Date Aug. 5 2014 17:58:01
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Fear not! (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Long live controversy and intelligent dispute!
Let it occure, and appreciate it.
I agree, Ruphus. And I think there has been enough debate (and dispute) over various topics on the Foro, from politics and economic systems to interpretations of flamenco and what constitutes correct compas, to keep life interesting. No one I have seen posting on the Foro has suggested that we refrain from such debate.
But there is a difference between engaging in honest debate over a topic, where both sides present compelling evidence while respecting each others' position, and one side or the other calling his opponent "ignorant" or "uninformed" or worse, because he disagrees with his interlocutor's position. Not to beat a dead horse, but it comes back to respect for your opponent, even though you may disagree with him. That applies to both men and women.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 5 2014 18:12:01
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to akatune)
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now you have said it ... its that itself ....
but now you see the problem ,,, how can admin . regulate such a thing ?..
Admin often rely on the integrit yof members and act upon reported incidents ..
no reports no action ...
what rules exactly have been broken ...?
I understand your post completely akatune ,
...in an ideal world...as you said this discussion wouldnt take place at all ...
yes admin .. and the top man himself can , and has, banished people off this site...
since he owns the site , i could be banished for the colour of my shoes .. or any other reason ,,, and thats that ...
However , who can really say that is not right on some perhaps borderline cases ?/
its tricky ,,
for example your own nickname does not instantly say to me that you are female ....I tend to treat people all the same anyway ... however the other member cristina , well yes female
someone may say something to you not realizing your gender ... then what /?
every member has the right to complain about any other member ,or ''ignore ''any member the rules you see have to be for everyone ...
or that would cause a further injustice ...
Perhaps , for example there should be another section for flamenco dance ....
this section would probably attract more women than men ,, and since there are female guitarists here as well ..
the extra section may change the dynamics of the foro in general ...
I know , i havent thought this through , i'm just typing from my head now...
but thats another idea from me though, i might get a point for trying ...
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Aug. 5 2014 19:44:08
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Miguel ... i understand that I am coming out argumentative , and i also understand that there is a possibility i may come out as the bad guy ...its not my intent ,,
the argumentative bit is just to make people think ....lots of complaints but no solutions ....so no direction ....
Although now i see some posts that have really had a lot of thought put into them ....
Other peoples opinions are just fine , whatever you feel is right , probably is , for you , right , ... .. if only we could put it all together in one general consensus ,,,,..
In the interst of avoiding conflict , and letting other people say what they need or feel is right , i will leave this thread now .... and visit from time to time ....
Im not a bad guy really ... a bit dim .. maybe ... but not so bad ......
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Aug. 5 2014 20:34:19
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
And Sr. Martins, your post was out of line. You may think you're being funny, but many women are going to be turned off, as am I.
Agreed, Miguel. But as I stated in my post above in response to his post, the women would not be so much offended as they simply would not want to participate in a forum whose members appeared to have the mental age of 12-year old school boys engaging in "potty humor." For that matter, who would?
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 5 2014 21:11:53
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to keith)
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quote:
kalo piped in stating she is female and yet no one stopped and thought about asking her your view point or even acknowledged her.
On the other hand, Kalo knew what the topic of this thread was, and it seems to me if she had something to say she would have said it. While I am all for more female participation, it is up to participants (male and female) to participate in the discussion. As far as acknowledging her, there was little in her statement to acknowledge, at least nothing I saw pertaining to this discussion.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 5 2014 21:19:46
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
want to have a conversation about women and the foro. Some questions that come to mind:
How do passive (non posting) female readers perceive the the Foro?
Perhaps we will hear from some of them?
How do active male posters think women perceive the Foro?
How much knowledge is being unheard because there is a dearth of female participants?
Does anyone care about these issues enough to make changes in the Foro culture to include more female participants?
Please discuss.
There are some rather crude commentators on this Foro, but as much as I abhor their style, I don't believe that they represent the true impediment to the impasse presented here. The real problem -to attracting or maintaining the presence of women- lies in the nature of the Forum; ForoFlamenco always was a men's club. Not a sophisticated one, really, but a men's club nonetheless.
It is a men's club where women are a welcomed exception but for whom no exceptions are made.
Even when I was an avid and eager contributor on the Foro, I always had to navigate cautiously through temperamental characters, sordid language, provocations and insults, but I enjoyed the part I came in to read or discuss. Ultimately, however, I too succumbed to the unpleasant climate a few had precipitated for all to suffer. I learned to only open and read posts written by those whom I respect, and plainly avoid the ones I learned to safely presume are ill conceived.
One does not need to be a woman to resent this place, any intelligent person does or will at some point. One simply needs to become selectively deaf (or blind) to go through the garbage many dump here, to find the treasures that a few still find time to contribute.
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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Date Aug. 5 2014 23:10:34
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to akatune)
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quote:
I have definitely seen women insulted on this forum. It's never a direct attack against any female who joins a discussion. Rather, its crude comments and penis jokes that seem to arise in threads once a woman joins. You don't have to personally attack a woman to insult her. Just put her in a room with a bunch of men and see what happens when half of them start making dick jokes and ****ty comments.
Ive noticed that some of this vernacular is not present in most threads, but when women are present it manifests.
Also, threads about "Female" guitarist and comments about how hot they are are just juvenile and stupid. Dull. Trite. And downright rude. If I'm with my friends we'll talk about women 'till the sun sets. But not in a public forum. People must be made to feel welcome. I'm no feminist, but when comments offensive to gender are uttered in a public forum that is intended to be inclusive, it casts a dark shadow on our forum.
Although some of this behavior is subtle, how can you blame a woman for not joining the discussion when she notices these things. A woman needs to stick up for herself, but a crowd of men should also behave as gentleman.
And, finally, why are so many of these posts about something utterly different than the topic of this thread?
I copy to to say I agree completely with these ideas.
There seems to be a concept here that if you don't like some thing don't read it, well some things should not be posted and a lot of misogyny goes under the radar.
My solution to that, the thing that I propose, is to consider a woman moderator or two to determine what constitutes speech or attitudes that constitute subtle intimidation to women posters. I propose turing the tables on the male oriented speech that describes the relationship between guitars and general flamenco to see what happens.
I bet $50.00 bucks more women would participate and make the Foro richer in knowledge and have less testosterone fueled threads.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Aug. 6 2014 0:28:07
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Let's have a conversation about ... (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
There are some rather crude commentators on this Foro, but as much as I abhor their style, I don't believe that they represent the true impediment to the impasse presented here. The real problem -to attracting or maintaining the presence of women- lies in the nature of the Forum; ForoFlamenco always was a men's club. Not a sophisticated one, really, but a men's club nonetheless.
It is a men's club where women are a welcomed exception but for whom no exceptions are made.
Even when I was an avid and eager contributor on the Foro, I always had to navigate cautiously through temperamental characters, sordid language, provocations and insults, but I enjoyed the part I came in to read or discuss. Ultimately, however, I too succumbed to the unpleasant climate a few had precipitated for all to suffer. I learned to only open and read posts written by those whom I respect, and plainly avoid the ones I learned to safely presume are ill conceived.
One does not need to be a woman to resent this place, any intelligent person does or will at some point. One simply needs to become selectively deaf (or blind) to go through the garbage many dump here, to find the treasures that a few still find time to contribute.
First off, I'd like to say thank you to Cristina and Kalo for participating. I'm not not worried about Kalo nor do I feel I have to ask her opinion, she is quite outspoken and says what she wants to say.
Getting onto your excellent post Giacomo,
I understand what you mean by finding treasures in the junkyard and realize we all have to tune out some of the noise. What I am talking about is a toxic kind of garbage that has no place even in this funky tree house of guitar lovers.
Some garbage is just like mouldering old newspapers, the poster says the same things over and over through the years. You pick your way past this old worn out verbiage and move on to find a little gem.
Some other garbage is highly toxic. How can you tell it's toxicity level? Well if it keeps half the population out of the junkyard then that is pretty toxic. I'm talking directly about misogynist speech that degrades or devalues women. It does not have to be overt speech and it can even arise in the form of coded off base jokes.
So be it, we have established that the Foro by its lineage somewhat of a Boys Club. Is it fair to ourselves as regular members and to prospective women participants to keep it so clubby? Is it fair to horde all the little gems we find after picking through yesterdays papers?
What about new and fabulous gems we might find in this junkyard if it were more inviting to women with good flamenco knowledge. They could also drop a few gems here or there?
Are we not receiving all the goods we can have in the flamenco junkyard by not making an effort to include more women?
Those are my questions, if you don't mind my simplistic Socratic tack.
P.S.
I agree there are some very eloquent and enjoyable participants here. I count you among them Giacomo, and I hope we all work toward encouraging more eloquent postings.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Aug. 6 2014 1:21:19
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