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Been wondering for a while.. I see different flamenco players place their left hand in different ways. They, basically, either place the thumb behind the neck all the time (like what classical players do) or they stick it out over the neck (like steel string players).
Is it a matter of personal preference? Or maybe what style the player originally came from?
That leads me to ask.. is there really a standard way for placing the left hand on the neck in flamenco guitar? Is it the same or different form the way classical guitar players place and move their left hand fingers when the play?
The reason I ask is I wanna know whether using the "right" left hand position (if there's one) really matters or has some advantages when playing flamenco.. I mean speed-wise.. or for more fluency, accuracy or whatnot.
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to WGuitar)
I suggest you copy this guy.
If you find someone who plays better and has their thumb over the neck then copy them. To be honest I never have though and I have been looking for some time.
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
I suggest you copy this guy.
If you find someone who plays better and has their thumb over the neck then copy them. To be honest I never have though and I have been looking for some time.
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to WGuitar)
I just love listening to this guy.. been listening EXCLUSIVELY to PDL for sometime now beside viewing just many many videos on YT.
His left hand remains sorta mystery to me.. I may be mistaken but to me the way he moves his LH fingers is just PERFECT (pretty much similar to the way many classical guitarists move their LH fingers when they play) YET it feels to me that it is much faster and way less rigid than many classical players!
How is that possible? Could someone explain it to me please?
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to WGuitar)
Having your thumb peek over the top is NEVER a good idea, I formed this habit but I only played thrash/death metal so it never really hurt me too bad but once I started playing flamenco it was obvious how limiting it is. Now no matter what genre I play my thumb will always be placed gently around the middle to bottom of the back side of the neck. Your fingers should be as perpendicular to the strings as possible always and the only way to achieve that is NOT having your thumb peeking over the top.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
Having your thumb peek over the top is NEVER a good idea, I formed this habit but I only played thrash/death metal so it never really hurt me too bad but once I started playing flamenco it was obvious how limiting it is. Now no matter what genre I play my thumb will always be placed gently around the middle to bottom of the back side of the neck. Your fingers should be as perpendicular to the strings as possible always and the only way to achieve that is NOT having your thumb peeking over the top.
Only for flamenco and classical it's not a good idea due to the fretboard's width and it limits how far your fingers can stretch. But on steel string acoustics it's not a problem due to the narrower fretboard.
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to tri7/5)
Hendrix is a major influence for blues guitarists; he fretted bass notes with his thumb instead of barres and used a different shape for the chords. I don't barre electric but it's not a great idea with wider necked flamencos.
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to tri7/5)
quote:
ORIGINAL: tri7/5 Thumb wrapped over is always bad technique IMO. Not sure why this started so heavily in the electric world from the blues guys.
Because it's essential technique. Try doing copious whole tone bends and vibrato on an electric guitar with heavy gauge strings without putting your thumb on the top of the neck for leverage. With such narrow necks it is no big deal to leave the thumb there a lot of the time, and even fret with it as Simon mentions in the Hendrix example.
Bad idea in flamenco or classical, yes, but you cannot extrapolate across styles to what is a different instrument.
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to Leñador)
More leverage and more strength, but not essential IMO. It's whatever you are used to-over the neck or not. But I think a lot, if not most, rock guys put the thumb over the neck at some point while bending. There is that G chord where your thumb frets the G note on the sixth string and mutes the A string, while your index frets the 1st and 2nd string on the third fret, and the rest are open. Big time power chord.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
How does having your thumb over the top help with bends???
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to WGuitar)
quote:
More leverage and more strength,
I don't see the physics behind that at all..... Like I said, I used to play like that, I corrected it. I could tell it was only limiting me. I feel like I have FAR more leverage now.......
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to WGuitar)
Having some electric guitar background, I find myself sticking out the left thumb over the neck most of the time.. I'm only starting to control myself though.
Folks here who play blues or rock.. beside flamenco! Do you use different left hand technique for different instruments? Or you go by applying your own same approach regardless of the instrument or the neck width..?
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to WGuitar)
quote:
No
I'm a lot more flat handed when I play metal because of all the distortion(muting strings that aren't played so they don't make unnecessary noise) so yes my technique is different but I still see no use for thumb over the top…….
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador I don't see the physics behind that at all.....
I'll try and explain though its best demoed. For killer bends and vibrato , like Van Halen, BB King, SRV, Hendrix, Clapton, Slash... the technique is the same. The action of the left hand (fingering hand) is like rotating a door knob anticlockwise. Thumb is placed on top of neck, place say 2nd and 3rd fingers of left hand on string ready to bend and then rotate the whole forearm to move the string upwards into the bend, looks like your wrist is moving in and out from the neck if you are doing vibrato and lots of articles will talk about getting a good 'wrist rocking vibrato'.
The power comes from the forearm, thumb acts as a pivot/support on top of the neck.
If you try and do big bends/vibrato with your thumb behind the neck opposing the fingers you have several problems - the fingers push up the bend and will straighten out, meaning the force has come from your fingers instead of your whole forearm (inefficient).
Also to stop the neck of the guitar also moving upwards you have no choice but to oppose with your thumb i.e. squeeze/grip the back of the neck hard - not good. Try this on a guitar with less than stellar action and your bending fingers might actually scoop under the strings above the one you are bending too.
The physics is very much with the technique I describe, this is how the guitar magazines teach it, this is how all the great players do it, and actually this idea that 'you should always have your thumb behind the neck' is a good example of where guitar technique dogma/rules fall flat when applied to different scenarios.
1.19 - SRV watch his hand, good angle from the back;
Eddie at 2.59:
BB king @ 3.27, and actually a row of guys all playing with thumbs on top most of the time:
Another advantage is if you have your guitar slung fairly low and have your thumb over top, your forearm> wrist is dead straight with no bend, very comfy and ergonomic. I see a lot of players with nasty bends in their fingering hand at the wrist due to the fact that they are keeping their thumb at the back and have the guitar slung low.
Finally here's Todd, who you'll know plays flamenco and classical to a high level (thumb back of the neck on those instruments). Thumb over top throughout here, watch his hand at around 1 minute in.
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
quote:
No
I'm a lot more flat handed when I play metal because of all the distortion(muting strings that aren't played so they don't make unnecessary noise) so yes my technique is different but I still see no use for thumb over the top…….
A lost of blues guys control their vibrato with rotation from the wrist with the thumb over the neck.
Here is the (white) master of over the neck thumb work.
Lots of those six string chords are possible only with the thumb. Look carefully and see how much he does with it (moving bass line with held five note chord anyone ?).
Gypsy Jazz rhythm guitarists prefer six note voicings like this
G6/9 P22133 (GDGBEA) or C9 sometimes fingered PP1222 (ADF#CEA).
Way back nineteenth century classical guitar heavy weight Gullio Regondi included the use of the thumb over the neck in his music.
All that being said I have only ever seen one flamenco guitarist who plays with the thumb over the neck as their go to position, he posts here and he plays very well. But he he has also mastered the 'classical' postition.
Not that I think that there really is a classical position it is a range of postitions and the difficulty is in knowing when you need to and then moving smoothly between them.
I've never seen or heard any flamenco music at all that seemed to have been composed or was played thumb over the neck. So I would focus on the classical/flamenco range of positions for flamenco guitar as this is what all of the players use and influences their note choice, chord choice,ease of incorporation of open strings with chords, style of articulation and vibrato.
RE: A question about the left hand (in reply to Blondie#2)
20 previous years of electric guitar playing here... I've never hung my thumb over and can bend and vibrato just fine. We can agree to disagree but IMO it's still bad technique and agree with Lenador that it's very limiting in terms of fluidity of movement as pretty much anyone doing that is using too much grip pressure. Pressure = strain = not being relaxed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Blondie#2
quote:
ORIGINAL: tri7/5 Thumb wrapped over is always bad technique IMO. Not sure why this started so heavily in the electric world from the blues guys.
Because it's essential technique. Try doing copious whole tone bends and vibrato on an electric guitar with heavy gauge strings without putting your thumb on the top of the neck for leverage. With such narrow necks it is no big deal to leave the thumb there a lot of the time, and even fret with it as Simon mentions in the Hendrix example.
Bad idea in flamenco or classical, yes, but you cannot extrapolate across styles to what is a different instrument.
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