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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]
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[Poll]
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** Changes to the Forum [POLL IS CLOSED]
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| Drop the Off Topic section entirely |
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| Lock the Off Topic section (for reference) |
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| Keep the Off Topic section, with new rules |
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| No political, sexual or religious discussion (anywhere) |
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| No more personal attacks or rudeness (zero) |
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Total Votes : 184
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(last vote on : Jun. 5 2014 15:25:54)
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)
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I voted for the last three, but there is something of a problem with the last one. Prohibiting rudeness and personal attacks is ineffective if there are posters whose interpretation of these terms deviates too far from the normal.
There are regular posters who exhibit this deviation. If called down for rudeness or personal attacks, they often reply with rudeness and personal attacks--as most people would interpret these terms--but these posters proclaim their innocence, or they justify themselves.
One of the reasons I read this forum regularly is just because of the wide range of opinion and belief represented here, even by some of the rudest posters. Their often despicable behavior just reminds me that such people exist, in fairly large numbers. Furthermore, some very rude posters exhibit redeeming characteristics. These characteristics are evaluated variously by various members.
I have found it amusing to be subjected to rudeness and personal attacks myself. I developed a pretty thick skin through a long career in a very competitive business, and I enjoy what some have seen as an unhealthy degree of self regard.
But the danger is that enough people will be offended by rudeness and personal attacks, that forum participation will drop to unsustainable levels. I have seen it happen in other forums. This is a real and severe danger.
At least three possible solutions exist. At present only the administrator has enough data available to judge whether some member's posts are damaging enough to warrant being banned. So, it remains the administrator's responsibility to decide.
Another possibility would be some sort of process where an individual could be nominated for banning, and a vote would be taken from the membership. The severe defect of this, from my point of view, is that it would open up a dynamic that I have never seen employed. Surely some forums exist where this is the rule, but I have never come across them. One can envision all sorts of abuse of such a facility. Perhaps the results of a banning vote should be available only to the Administrator, allowing him to apply his judgment and discretion.
A third possibility would be for the "ignore this person" option to be made more prominent, and its use to be encouraged when complaints are received. Thus each person could, to a large extent, tailor his or her own experience. This would not preclude the Administrator from barring someone permanently for sufficient cause--the only workable solution to someone whose idea of acceptable behavior is too despicable to be tolerated. And it would not solve the problem of a newcomer being alienated by too much bad behavior.
As I see it, some combination of banning and individual use of the "ignore" function may be the most workable solution. But neither tactic is without its drawbacks. It has to be a tradeoff.
RNJ
http://i.imgur.com/82UioAU.jpg
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Date Jun. 4 2014 0:36:59
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
but there is something of a problem with the last one. Prohibiting rudeness and personal attacks is ineffective if there are posters whose interpretation of these terms deviates too far from the normal. There are regular posters who exhibit this deviation. If called down for rudeness or personal attacks, they often reply with rudeness and personal attacks--as most people would interpret these terms--but these posters proclaim their innocence, or they justify themselves.
Two comments on your observation cited above, Richard.
A. I doubt that their interpretation of rudeness and personal attacks deviates from the norm. They know they are being rude, and they know when they are attacking someone. They just lack the respectful attitude and common courtesy to refrain from doing so.
B. But whether they interpret rudeness and personal attacks differently or not (and I think they know exactly what they are doing), there is no reason that I can see why they should not be banned from the Foro. There are enough members of the Foro who do respect those with whom they may disagree, that I don't think the Foro would be damaged were the few who lack that respect to be banned.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 4 2014 1:07:30
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Aeolus, I wasn't even talking about you, I thought it was clear that Ruphus is the target of this discussion. Although now that you have mentioned it, your trollery has probably offended a lot of the types that only want to hear about flamenco.
I don't have any problem with Rufus, he is fine. He gets carried away, but he's ok. The way the group reacts when there's blood in the water is what worries me.
It's not one person who causes the trouble, not a single one person, it's the group dynamic. Rufus' posts are ok, but some of his topics they belong somewhere else than Foro Flamenco. No offence Rufus, I like you and I think you are a valued member of the Foro. You have your ups & downs like everyone else, but sometimes you go too far! I'm willing to put up with too far out a few times, but not super often.
If you banned Rufus, I don't like that idea of that, nothing would change. We have to al be willing to work to change the culture of the Foro to make it less contentious. It's all the members' responsibility to try to get along with people you don't like.
Some people here have been here a long time and we know what he dislike about others....and we have our beefs, how to we get past that?
We need to recognize when a post is going to set off a shietstorm and then hopefully the guidelines will be established so that someone goes too far posting a topic the guidelines are clear and the topic will be removed. I suggest removing the topics that are too far out of the scope of the Foro instead of allowing them to fester and create disharmony. If there are posted guidelines about what is too far out then there will be a clear boundary.
I think it is a matter of setting some boundaries about topics and then if the boundaries are not met, the topic gets deleted. That method would prevent old arguments from being archived and it would teach posters not to waste their time or the time of others on a non starter topic. In the end some guidelines should be posted and then the moderator will just have to make a case by case judgement call on which topics are Foro worthy. Those topics not up to Foro standards should just be clipped off the vine.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jun. 4 2014 6:52:50
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to akatune)
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quote:
The most infuential member was booted-off for spurious legal reasons (do not tell us agin that that other dude could have sued - hogwash).
There's very little usable flamenco educational information here anymore.
The users argue and backbite constantly, the foro is flooded with political threads posted by disgruntled marxist neophyte philosophers.
The snobbery is stunning (the horrible attitudes of know-it-alls who want to prove they know more about flamenco than everybody else).
The endless threads about a silly guy selling bad guitars.
And the most egregious error was the absolutely disgusting, horrifying, disrespectful attitudes displayed to women who attempted to become part of the group!
Akatune, you put it in a very harsh manner, but basically i agree with most of it. Your last point I totally agree. I really felt ashame of being a foro member last time a bunch of dorks got horny and spammed the foro completely because a member was of female gender.
That was so far out neanderthal and a couple of guys should have been send away for a period. It was soooo low.
Its just an example and there are many of thems. To many interesting threads being turned into sexist, political, anger, Conde, Reyes plan, Ruben Diaz, you name it.
And finally, I personally dont think anyone should be banned right now. I dont see that as the problem. Its more a general lack of respect. This includes overposting, which totally kills the energy of a place like this one.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jun. 4 2014 8:07:39
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to El Burro Flamencuro)
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I thought the missing exclamation mark after F*** The Rich would indicate the use of an idiom as indicator for a followed topic.
However, I should had put it in quotation marks.
I also though that posting on this list since years now could had revealed over time that I see little use in personal offence and tend to stick to contents. But maybe for some it might appear handy to miss out on such.
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Common sense considers "politics" as something discrete like for instance physics or geography.
However politics is the way you proceed. And that includes all regards and levels.
Politics is part of how you approach surrounding and environment. It is not a certain subject that could be excluded from a way of life.
( Which is why I was kind of irritated in the California of the Seventies when people would say like: "I am not interested in politics". With me remaining like: "Uhm, ..." >scratch head<)
Psychology says that a use of blinkers indicates shortcomings of the mind that does not want to see something. Whereas a mind that is ready for the truth will not wish for banning and censoring. It dreads no contents.
Psychology also notes beheading of couriers. The weaker recepient´s point of view being in regard of a factual situation the rather the informative rejection is likely to occure. ( See above, some interpreting the current havoc on creature and nature on earth as "personal opinion", as if these things weren´t there / were a matter of subjectivity.)
Discrete handling of topics commonly serves the exclusion of wholistic understanding.
Innovative individuals like for instance the inventor of the electron microscope despair on the inflexibility / lack of originality with todays students, which again - as they point out - comes from late schools paradigm of isolated viewing.
Another forum related to music is basically regulating itself, with moderators only interfering when there be out of hand hostility or legal issue.
At first there were conservatives´ vehement objections against my venting crap as well, but chaps defended me, and the board over time developed into being extremely informative and friendly sharing but also a very versatile and open-minded place where the young learn from straight but content related discussions of the grown-ups.
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Like David I do not find my take represented in the poll. So, to me "No more personal attacks or rudeness" was the only choice of sense.
With the first 12 votes of yesterday selecting all other suggestions favorable to the "No more personal attacks or rudeness", I thought for a moment to possibly have over estimated the members´ progressive share.
But seeing today how now the last suggestion leads in votes, restored my faith in the foro folks.
Ruphus
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Date Jun. 4 2014 10:47:01
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
This is a flamenco forum, established for the discussion of flamenco.
I have had complaints about a number of offensive threads and posts. Mostly, these are in the off-topic section, but not always.
These comments are public and do not reflect well on our community, they dilute the forum and discourage others from engaging.
Please make the effort to indicate your preferences in this poll. You can choose more than one option. I'll run this poll for a couple of weeks and then see where we are.
Two Points:
1.: The "off-topic" section was not created to afford us a chance to speak our mind about subjects unrelated to flamenco. It was created out of housekeeping needs, in order to "segregate" into a separate section the vast assortment of threads and post that were unrelated to flamenco.
Hence, the "off-topic" section was in response to what appeared to be a need most members had, at one point or another, to simply chat with the friends they have here. And why not? We all have established certain friendships here –out of a common interest in flamenco guitar- and yet we recognize that these relations are cultivated here, on the pages of this forum, and rarely outside. With some exceptions, we are geographically distant, and this place brings us together –for many, everyday.
Even the professional players who contribute here have other interests and hobbies, and why depriving them (and us) of the opportunity to share such interests, albeit unrelated, with their friends?
My view is that a thread in the off topic section is not unlike a personal blog, on more personal matters than the general discussion about anything "flamenco".
2.: The irascible and aggressive behavior we often endure on this forum, seems to be a prerogative of ForoFlamenco. I post on many other forums and have never encountered the bullying and abusive posts, replete with petty and vulgar language, that certain members indulge here. It is not a problem to be excused as a linguistic impediment nor on account of the passionate nature of this music, Flamenco. Rather, other forums ban immediately and unconditionally any user who degenerates into offensive posts. However, those forums have thousands of members, their community is not as tight as this, and people come and go without being truly noticed or missed. Here, we have a numbered membership, and excluding one member resonates much more severely.
Of course, the supreme example must be that of Jason McGuire who had much to share here. A fine musician, indeed, who regrettably launched consistently offensive and abusive attacks against other members, musicians or luthiers, without restraint. My understanding –in reply to some posts on this thread- is that he was not expelled for "legal" reason, but because of mounting complaints about his conduct. Since then, many here –including me- became disenchanted with the Forum; each time I would log out feeling that I had been in the company of drunks and thugs. And really, I had enough.
This unpleasant state of affairs is now turning into a problem, again.
A case study:
The former Mayor of New York, Rudolph Giuliani resolved the plague of "graffiti" afflicting subway trains, by erasing them "swiftly". The underlying psychological theory was that the "artists" would lose interest in painting the subway cars, if their work was not there to be admired.
I think that is exactly the sole change this Forum needs to implement.
I too once, instigated (unintentionally and unexpectedly) a remarkably heated confrontation by commenting on some news of the day. My thread was deleted, and I know better now, than to drift into such subjects. There is unfortunately no rule or punishment that can frame the acceptable conduct for Forum's members, as much as experiencing the restrictions one (as I did) did not appreciate originally.
Respect is the supreme operative word, I agree. And I believe it can be taught!
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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Date Jun. 4 2014 11:37:59
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