** Changes to the Forum [POLL IS CLOSED]

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[Poll]

** Changes to the Forum [POLL IS CLOSED]

Drop the Off Topic section entirely

5% (11)

Lock the Off Topic section (for reference)

0% (1)

Keep the Off Topic section, with new rules

28% (53)

No political, sexual or religious discussion (anywhere)

25% (46)

No more personal attacks or rudeness (zero)

39% (73)

Total Votes : 184

(last vote on : Jun. 5 2014 15:25:54)

Message

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Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

** Changes to the Forum [POLL IS CLOSED]

This is a flamenco forum, established for the discussion of flamenco.

I have had complaints about a number of offensive threads and posts. Mostly, these are in the off-topic section, but not always.

These comments are public and do not reflect well on our community, they dilute the forum and discourage others from engaging.

[THIS POLL AND THREAD ARE NOW CLOSED if you have any comments or suggestions, please send me a Private Message]

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 9:31:11

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

If I can editorialize briefly, banning personal attacks seems like it goes without saying no matter what actions are taken about the Off Topic section.

I also enjoy the non aggressive forays into politics, travel, history etc. as long as one or more parties don't have a bloody axe to grind. There are several excellent story tellers here who often link the story to flamenco some way. Would hate to lose that.

The frustration level seems to skyrocket when the Off Topic section is used as a personal problem dumping ground. When OT is being used that way it abuses other members by subjecting them to unneeded anger in large amounts.

I think the Off Topic section should be for socializing on non flamenco topics, but not a catch all for what is wrong with the world. Often times a conversation about flamenco means you delve into politics and religion, especially when discussing the history of letras and cante meaning. So it does have a place in flamenco chat. The gratuitous use of the OT section for venting personal issues the general population of the Foro are not interested in is obviously a big problem. Otherwise the OT is a beneficial section especially for non flamenco music topics to develop.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 15:06:58

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

although the off topics section is useful when you really dont know where to put things , most of the stuff in there is only off topic to this forum ...and on topic to other forums .... .. it really means if you constantly want to talk about ... say classical guitar .. for example or anything non-flamenco .. then you are probably in the wrong forum

...

like that wierd guy who keeps posting blues videos with a telecaster

someone should point him at the blues forum ... there must be at least a few thousand of them to choose from .....

Am I sacked now ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 15:14:28

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

like that wierd guy who keeps posting blues videos with a telecaster

I was waiting for that one

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 15:17:36

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

damn .... I'll get my coat on the way out .... where are the flamenco police when you need one eh ??/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 15:26:36

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

It seems to me that when flamenco guitar and classical or any other nylon strung instrument intersect as flamenco playing classical and vice versa then why should that be verboten? But given the quasi-religious feelings for flamencos and even a certain brand instrument here maybe it would be well to specify that ONLY genuine flamenco topics and only flamenco are allowed. Blues, classical, folk, etc. are not wanted. Describing a topic as General is misleading as to the temper of the current membership.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 15:33:17

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to estebanana)

Historical reference to religion, politics or sex in the context of flamenco is very different from posting personal convictions or worse, bigotry. I would expect common sense in this respect.

I mean a derogatory and inflexible stance that is calculated to shock and probably offend. If one can't tell the difference, one shouldn't post.

This is not just about the Off Topic section, this is about posting personal manifestos and opinion without the slightest concern that they might offend and that others may feel very differently. It's about respect, attitude and choice of language. Posting in Off Topic is not permission for a free-for-all.

Let us not bang on about putting the world to rights in short-tempered threads, scattered with insults and expletives.

Let us not snipe at our fellows over purely subjective opinion, as if it is a fact or a lie and then argue it to be fact or a lie, when it is just opinion and nearly everyone has one of those.

This is not anyone's personal soapbox to dominate and smother civilised discourse. So let's get passionate about music, art, flamenco or something that comes close to why we are here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 15:38:30

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Escribano)

[Deleted by Admins]

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:01:35

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

It's about time to do something Simon, appreciate it a lot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:07:55

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

I think heated discussions are a good thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:09:54

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

I totally agree here . , however its a public forum so you cant always count on everyone behaving themselves . .
A bit like Youtube ,..anyone can logon , see my public videos .. and swear at me .. and tell me how crap i am and that i should give up etc ... this is one of the things about being on line publically ..
you cant really say what people may or may not want to write ... some behave themselves some do not .. and some dont even realize what they say may offend ...

Its the price to pay for having a forum ....
And hence the need for moderators that assist with regulating content locking threads that get too far out , and throwing people out at the forums discretion ..

Its more a case of saying what the forum is for rather then what it is not for ...so keeping onTopic

if you get one or two bad comments a week i would say then your probably doing OK , you cant please all of the forum all of the time , just please most of the forum most of the time

You can listen to people. You can learn from them. You can be agreeable and you can agree to disagree. But if you’re liked by everyone, you’re probably doing it wrong.

decision time .....¿How many moderators do you have now Escribano ? they are about as near as we have to the Flamenco police .....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:10:47

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

I would like to register my abstention on the grounds that I do not see my views or interests represented in this poll.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:14:52

Bliblablub

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
Let us not snipe at our fellows over purely subjective opinion, as if it is a fact or a lie and then argue it to be fact or a lie, when it is just opinion and nearly everyone has one of those.

Some "opinions" are trash. People who do have those kind of "opinions" and do not recognize that are pretty trash too. Something is wrong when people think they can get along having opposing "opinions" while not having the objectivity to solve those contradicting "opinions" in discussions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:24:21

Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

I votes for new rules, but would rather call them 'guidelines'.

To keep the focus on the foro on flamenco, i would close the off-topic for guest (and search engines).
F
Cheers!

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Hola Caracola

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:26:32

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

I think we could take a tip from Delcamp Forum. They also have an "Off Topic" section for things that don't relate to classical guitar, and it is a perfectly lively and informative section.

But they do not allow discussions on politics or religion. Below is the guideline taken from the Delcamp Forum:

No politics, no religion

Please do not discuss politics or religion on this Forum. This does not only mean in messages, it also includes avatars, signatures and attached files. For example, holy pictures will be suppressed, with no possibility of appeal. In some cases, disciplinary measures will be taken.

Why?
Because this Forum is devoted to the classical guitar. Individual political opinions and religious convictions are very respectable but can lead to heated discussions, and there are countless other forums on the Internet where these subjects can be discussed.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:35:01

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Yes it does seem odd there was no none of the above or no rules category.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:36:28

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

I'd like to start by acknowledging Simon for this great forum. There is so much good information here and I'm glad to be a member.
That said, I am not interested in knowing someone's fascination for pornography, drugs, derogatory attitudes toward other groups of people, and lack of respect for copyrighted materials. I've seen this too many times here and it's time for a change.
Personal attacks such as on the last thread that was locked must be dealt with immediately. Topics such as 'F' this group or that group should be blocked before they're even posted.
I am glad to see that we are moving in this direction. Please let me know if I can
help moderate.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:40:38

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

I personally think it's good to have a Off-Topic section. Quite recently for example there was a thread recommending a guitarist playing African music who was wonderful. I also enjoyed reading Simon's electric guitar mods.

Rules should change but keep the Off Topic section if possible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:42:12

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

How about we just let a few aggressive self marketers and social conservatives set the agenda in a 'Cliques and Chronies' section.

If successful it could gradually be allowed to absorb the whole foro.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 16:52:08

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

I dont think the Off Topic section is the problem. Nor is the guy with the telecaster, the fiddle, the dogs, the boat etc.

The problem is much more general. There are some few members who in order to feel alive have to type a million words a day and they use the forum to fullfill this need. Since they hardle ever talk about flamenco, it ends up in the off topic (and sometimes lutherie) section(s).
At the same time many of theese posters are full of anger and bad energy, so many other members leave the forum and we end up being a lot of semi of fully neurotic members like myself.

I agree with the no to politics, religion, sex and I hate everything posts. And i will try to behave better myself. I actually mean it.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 17:12:39

Bulerias2005

Posts: 632
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

Maintaining a high level of civility is probably the way to go. I am a member of numerous videogame forums that have (had?) the same problem, and their solution was swift bannings... seems to work pretty well.

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Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 17:42:08

El Burdo

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I was the target of the most immoderate attack and that guy should be sacked for it. The original poster shouldn't have been able to post the thread in the first place either. That was the perfect case for moderation. I don't think you need call it politics or religion, but ranting. It attracts the mad, and I regret even trying to be reasonable.

There are not many active posters here because of some posters' intense need to assert themselves and their views. Like dogs pissing on your coatstand. I know for a fact that it turns people off who have a lot to offer. It isn't just the smart alecs. It's the bitter pills and the smug old men.

But, I don't think we should want to change that. We can ignore stuff that is of no interest and those members referred to above are often very informative and helpful. But it feels like picking up a rose by the stem when you engage with them some times.

I'm not in favour of any additional rules but I think everything should be about flamenco in its widest form. That includes other related luthiery, classical intersection, jazz harmony in modern flamenco etc. But not dogs or The Blues (sorry). And if anyone says **** You to anyone, dump them.

Sorry: EDIT. I think you are doing a fantastic job as well, Escribano.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 17:47:10

akatune

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

You want to abridge people's expressions of their opinions?
Wow, how absolutely thin skinned and weak. And tyrannical.
I'm being oppressed.

Help! I'm being oppressed!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 17:57:58

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

On of the reasons I was off the forum for a while was because of a few very rude characters who really managed to turn every single thread into a negative debate or name turning contest.

We have no female contributers apart from Estela any more. Why??
Its because every single time, they get bullied and treated disrespectfully by the same one or two characters who never get pulled up on their behaviour.

First rule should be that female contributors are treated in a gentleman like manner by male members or instant ban.

I think Off topic is great and so is lively debate...also if someone wants to raise a political point in an off topic thread, that should be able to happen without it being brought in to all the other threads. If you dont like that thread...dont read it!!

I think modulation needs to be stricter on trolls, spammers, name callers, biggots and sexists. After fair warnings we banned people in the past who turned the forum into a negative place. That hasnt happened for a while. It all boils down to basic respect, debate and learning....not about preaching, superiority and just plain rudeness.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 18:11:45

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

I think some people have problems with specific people but it's not all the same person and if the rules don't change to modify that ONE persons behavior then the other person is going to think nothing was done. That made more sense in my brain then after I read it…..

Not opposed to some new guidelines, don't care either way to be honest but I don't think this forum should be as stuffy and uptight as delcamp. A room full of flamencos should and would be a little more colorful than a room full of classical players…..

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 18:11:53

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to akatune)

Akatune,
While you weren't the only antagonist in the last locked thread, you certainly
weren't civil. If it were up to me (and it isn't) you would have been warned the
first time and then banned the second time you cussed someone out. You have the right to your opinions as long as you practice restraint and civility. Perhaps if you did practice some self-imposed oppression, we wouldn't have to oppress you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 18:13:42

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

There are not many active posters here because of some posters' intense need to assert themselves and their views. Like dogs pissing on your coatstand. I know for a fact that it turns people off who have a lot to offer. It isn't just the smart alecs. It's the bitter pills and the smug old men.

But, I don't think we should want to change that. We can ignore stuff that is of no interest and those members referred to above are often very informative and helpful. But it feels like picking up a rose by the stem when you engage with them some times.

I agree. In my wild fantasies, I see a typing counter, so that when you´ve reached a certain amount of words, you´re off till next month.
It works like that when reading some newspapers online. After 15 - 25 articles, you´re banned for the rest of the month. It makes you think about what you really want to read.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 18:15:01

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to akatune)

quote:

You want to abridge people's expressions of their opinions?
Wow, how absolutely thin skinned and weak. And tyrannical.
I'm being oppressed.

If I were thin-skinned, I would not ask for feedback
If I were weak, I would do nothing
If I were tyrannical, I would not put it up for a vote

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 18:22:44

withinity

Posts: 180
Joined: Sep. 17 2013

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

Off Topic (Guest: Read-Only / Member: Post)
Nothing to do with flamenco, move along

By this definition topics about my grandmother, dog, boat political or religious views are all within the right to post. If you personally don't like a topic , that's your own issue.

Where do you draw the line in terms of who's interests are valid enough to post and which can we ignore when we all feel and think different things which ultimately leads to various expression and posts of different content.

I'm not in favour of any additional rules but I think everything should be about flamenco in its widest form. That includes other related luthiery, classical intersection, jazz harmony in modern flamenco etc.

All of those forum sections exist already so whats the problem, if you want to discuss Flamenco choose any forum except Off topic ? Its not like it disturbs the other sub forums and i'm sure no'one forced you into viewing it.

I understand targeting personalisms because they have no place in a constructive conversation but if people can present there opinions without being nasty or condescending about matters then they should not be censored IMO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 18:41:51

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Escribano)

By removing the off-topic section you will severely limit the discussed subjects. In my experience life is much more than flamenco and sometimes it is nice to be able to share certain findings or discuss an issue with people you've conversed with for years and whose opinion you value.

Perhaps politics and religion should not be discussed.

What turns me down on this forum is some flamenco snobbery that I see from time to time. Some comments here and there about classical music in particular (one of them is already in this thread). As a player who plays both styles I was turned off by some of the posts. If you remove off-topic section it will be impossible to talk about any style but flamenco. Then again, maybe that's what you want...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 3 2014 20:04:15