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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE VOTE]
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[Poll]
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** Changes to the Forum [POLL IS CLOSED]
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| Drop the Off Topic section entirely |
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| Lock the Off Topic section (for reference) |
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| Keep the Off Topic section, with new rules |
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| No political, sexual or religious discussion (anywhere) |
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| No more personal attacks or rudeness (zero) |
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Total Votes : 184
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(last vote on : Jun. 5 2014 15:25:54)
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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 RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Leñador)
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Well, I guess if I don't post here I must be one of the misogynystic, vulgar, ranting maniacs that are destroying the ambiance? Who are these people? Us, no?
Now that I've posted I won't be voting. I'm with Buddha and Mark2. There is no 'none of the above' to choose. This is like voting for Scottish independence, I don't get to vote for my choice (slinging the politicians into a rocket and sending them to the moon).
It's all down to the owner. He's god and a few Hobson's choices will not change that.
I think this is a great forum just the way it is. Buddha nailed it. (And the guy that runs it is doing a fine job as is.) One man's 'vulgar' is another man's (or woman's, if there were any) daily fare. I'm a vulgar person and get easily miffed when people start complaining about it.
In fact, the only problem I see is that people tend not to name each other when they get offended by something. It becomes all about them and us.
People have been extraordinarily rude to me. And I've been rude back. We survived. I think they started it. They think I started it. Nobody else cares. We're being childish because we are all musicians, artists (of sorts), full of passion. It cannot not happen.
I know for sure that all the people I have offended (not because I am offensive, you see, but because they were being ****s) would be better than good friends (or will be, who knows) if or when we meet in the real world.
Heated discussion must be permitted. If someone goes completely nuts we can talk them down or god can ban them.
Worldwide internet communication is not easy. But we/you do a good job.
I think religion and politics should be a must. Nobody should be allowed to post unless they can find a religious or political angle.
We have extremes of views even within the focus of our attention. Someone mentioned being a flamenco snob. He's right about himself. But I want to hear his unadulterated views. That's what I need to hear. I'm not ashamed to be a flamingo guitar man but it doesn't mean people can talk to me like they think my name is Cleetus (sorry Cleetus). I learn a lot here. But I need, sometimes, to ask questions. I need not to go down the wrong road for me.
Trying to legislate for this stuff is not possible, period. For example, let's say Buddha (I'll use his presence rather than my own cause he offers more) says something that sounds 'dismissive', and let's assume it is. Does that mean someone can just come and whitter about his tone or his barbs and we chuck him? But he's my go to jazz man. It's like, I can do the math, but he's much better at it than me.
Another thing is that I have found myself laughing at things at which others have taken offense. The point is, I know when I am being offensive. Recently, for example I compared Brower's music to a turd. (A steamy, warm one, at that.) Plenty of people took offense. I thought they completely missed my deep insight. I was refering to his early work; I know nothing of his later work. I've even performed that work. I have the right. I did not cast aspersions upon his character. And this is where we get mixed up. People defend their opions like they were their children. So, my question would be: Is calling Leo Brouwer's moozik a jobjob insanely rude and bannable, or is saying "the person who said that is not fit to clean his toilets!" the thing that is bannable?
Why would anyone ever take offense at Ruphus's posts? It's like watching a crazy foreign film listening to him. Like he's sitting in his livingroom and rich people are driving him nuts so he has to tell someone. Or his dog sht on the carpet and that's why western democracy is crumbling. But he has coined some beautiful phrases and ideas and I enjoy his views very much.
It's fun. Let's not all turn into busybodies. I live in Switzerland. I love it. It's safe and clean and well-run and everyone is polite.
But if a bit of litter falls out of your pocket, citizens will report you to the police. This is real. I am not making it up.
But in Switzerland we have direct democracy. A bit like this vote. So we keep the latent nazi tendencies at bay
Can't we just get on with it? I vote to not have vote.
Respect other people's opinons, whatever they are?
No. Never.
But I respect the right for people to hold and set forth those opinions. But if some guy from Alabama (see how little respect I have for Amerikans?) starts telling me I'm vulgar and he'll pray for me, I'll maybe tell him to go fck himself, using those or other words. Nobody dies. Nobody is hurt.
Here's a ruphusism: I do not respect religion, nor do I have much respect for politicians. Religion is delusion, it is little better than brain damage. It is my duty, as a human being, to disseminate that information (unless I'm living in the middle east and they'll perhaps kill me for saying it -- and I did live in the middle east and I never said it, so here I am, still cowardly and alive).
And this is a big long, boring post cause, if we are being serious about this then why have my opinions been excluded from the vote (and Buddha and Mark2, and others)?
Please, let this place not turn into Switzerland where the majority, no matter how small, are always right... or some other horrific place where the conditionals place too much of a burden on the soul.
(By the way, I could not be arsd writing this so Ricardo kindly consented.)
Grisha, classical moosik is sht. Stop it at once. Next time you play Bach, know that it is not classical music with all those stupid nuances and such, it is naught but banging a guitar while drunk. Get drunk and start banging. I don't want to hear your opinion, I want to hear you play. (now I'm worried that this is offensive, should I post or not... I dunno.)
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 5 2014 7:13:14
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to z6)
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quote:
Another thing is that I have found myself laughing at things at which others have taken offense. The point is, I know when I am being offensive. Recently, for example I compared Brower's music to a turd. (A steamy, warm one, at that.) Plenty of people took offense. I thought they completely missed my deep insight. I was refering to his early work; I know nothing of his later work. I've even performed that work. I have the right. I did not cast aspersions upon his character. And this is where we get mixed up. People defend their opions like they were their children. So, my question would be: Is calling Leo Brouwer's moozik a jobjob insanely rude and bannable, or is saying "the person who said that is not fit to clean his toilets!" the thing that is bannable?
If you found yourself laughing at others for getting mad after you calculated the comment and you know when you are being offensive then you perhaps should moderate yourself more.
You don't have the right to call a major composer a turd if you have not studied the work deeply in all respects. And even then you don't have the right to call Brouwer a turd You were out of line then and you are out of line now and I am offended. But I never cared about your opinions because you treat the subject of Brouwers music with such disrespect.
You're opinions are your own, but calculating them to shock get a response is what is childish. And if someone comes to defend Brouwer after you said that is does not make them childish, it simply means they are returning the discourse back to you, and probably at a higher level than you deserve. See you can't start discourse at a the level of turd, it means you don't care enough about the subject to give others an entry point to express an opinion.
The thing that bothers mew is if you put a out a reasonable carefully thought out opinion and give others the space in the opinion to respond some guy is going to call you a know it all or college boy or say you write too much.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 5 2014 9:42:44
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to estebanana)
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Shock response?
I think not. I love music. I also think some music is sheet.
It's no big deal. You've posted some of the most offensive stuff I've seen here. That's your perogative and my interpretation. But I would never report you or vote you off for it. Ron gave this place balance but he also posted some sexually explicit comments. Would he, if he were to arrive here today, get banned for it?
I discuss music the way I want to discuss it. None of it is calculated to do anything other than carry the information I am trying to transmit.
But Carbonara was banned for constantly dissing your guitars. I think that's fair. It seems like double standards. Your guitars are your work and not you. But they are more than opinions, it is your living. We must be able to think what we think about music. There are 'tricks' in flamenco that can cut years of tedious study but sometimes they are hard to find. Surely we have to question things?
But if I think someone's compositions are not just dreadful but insulting and peurile, designed for the simple minded who might be giants, then that's what I think. I use a double standard because Brouwer can handle someone's opinion but maybe, within such a difficult sector, you cannot. Nobody gets hot under the collar if someone disses poor old Ruben or some other unfortunate collective punching bag. If Brouwer came here today and was miffed at my summation of his music what could I tell him? Look man, go make a living. Have fun. But it's a kid-on. Take yer ****ey music away from me before I give you a slap. I didn't get banned for that. If I had it would be fine with me.
But others ply a living here and spend a lot of time talking about tooning and such. That's okay. But only as long as now and again the rest of us get to ask for a break. I can't help myself. If a flamencologist, instead of offering his opinion and his knowledge, goes on a name rant, in 'support of this or that' why can't his premises be tested? If someone says that 'duende' requires both 'sight and sound', why can't I laugh at that? Because he's got experience? If someone claims he can take a guitar, but not one of his own for they are perfect, and says that according to string choice he can bring out the full potential of the guitar, why can't I simply ask him to 'steady on'? And if the reply is that he knows more than me then I will ask questions and make observations accordingly. He has a right to market here but not a right to talk over us like we're all invisible.
I've been accused many time of saying things 'for effect'. Maybe the way I express myself is 'affected' but it is never designed to do anything but express my opinion.
Is it not this judgemental bent that we are displaying within this vote? Is it democratic? Will it help if people stop 'being rude' to each other? Will it stop you being rude to me, for example? Slinging your leg around your neck to sound reasoned?
I think your post is rude. How does that work then? Because you don't write for effect so you are innocent?
We talk here as if there were some invisible limitation on word numbers or post numbers. I hate the personal attacks. I hate them, really. But your post, to me, seems like a personal attack. You are informing me of my intentions. It is hugely rude. You are telling me how to be. But surely you are not trying to be rude? I'm just such a sensitive soul that I get all a quiver.
It doesn't matter. I enjoy lots of your posts. If we have to self edit too much then it become difficult to be clear. We end up in screeds of parenthesis while we try not to offend. This is not 'us'. We are all fragmented across topics and posts.
Let god decide these things, the way he always has. It is the burden of omniscience.
The idea of people voting each other up or down makes me queasy.
You (the owner) run a great forum. I get that this seems 'democratic' but it is not. If the forum seems worse or better than it used to be that's because it is.
So, how about the real vote? The one that should take place?
Lose the asterisks and let us say what we mean to say.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 5 2014 11:21:18
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akatune
Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008
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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Leñador)
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Aaaaaaaand....this thread has turned to crap like all the others because theres no focus.
One of the above posters said something akin to, "one man's vulgar is another man's acceptable blah blah blah." Not really. Almost everybody understands their culture's "polite" or "acceptable" behavior.
If this is a flamenco forum, talk about flamenco. If you want to talk about communism, the modern men's movement, tell dirty jokes or jhtpiuoahefuihf, then go to a forum for that topic.
This is a public forum, not your own damn bedroom. I know there are many people here who are devoted to this site. And some members who apparently use this site as their only connection to the world outside your living room, and some use it as an emotional soundboard. But would you really do that in public, at a pub, or at work?
If you were at a real flamenco club and a woman walked into the room, would you start screaming "PENIS" over and over again at the to of your lungs. If a person was trying to do something in flamenco in a different manner than yourself, would you tell gather around that person and heap your own personal shame on that member.
Maybe a couple of you would. But mostly you're all decent folk who should behave decently here as you would in real life.
Shoot! There's a luthier trying to escape from my basement. I gotta go.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 5 2014 14:01:25
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: ** Changes to the Forum [PLEASE ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Depressing, but not surprising. I see that there are those who even find this subject (of all subjects) an opportunity to deposit stuff better suited to the toilet.
They are faithfully proving the point of starting this thread in the first place. I won't forget.
Meantime, thanks to everyone else for their constructive and honest feedback.
I was not going to moderate this discussion but I cannot let it run along these lines any longer, so I am locking it whilst I consider the comments and make some plans of my own. This means that the poll is also locked.
In the meantime, my tolerance for personal attacks, abuse, insults, bypassing the bad word filter, cynical put downs, claiming "no rules" etc. is zero and moderation will be swift and effective.
Anyone who feels that the Forum Agreement is being breached, please click on "Report Abuse" below the offending post.
This is the agreement we all accepted:
quote:
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In other words, be reasonable and enjoy ....
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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
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Date Jun. 5 2014 15:38:23
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. I realized years ago that you gotta sport a thick skin out here in the wild west of the internet or you'll just constantly be angry or annoyed. 
