Thumb upstrokes in place of index upstrokes

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Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

Thumb upstrokes in place of index up...

Hello everyone,

Just been thinking... I really noticed that solea, alegrias, solea por buleria etc...in fact everything except buleria I use my thumb for 90% the upstrokes!!

is this a big problem??

it doesn't seem to hinder me but I'm concerned it may be doing so without me realising.

cheers]
sTu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2014 10:05:02

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Stu)

Not sure what you mean.

You mean strumming compas? I can't quite picture what you're talking about.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2014 11:37:38

Cloth Ears

Posts: 152
Joined: Apr. 26 2005

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Stu)

Triplet rasguedos use the thumb upstroke: P(up)A(down)I(down) <repeat> although you can achieve a lower power variant of this with M(down)I(down)M(up). The former is harder to do but is commonly used. The latter is less used but has its place.

For the PAI rasguedo, you will need to rotate your wrist with the upstroke and almost clasp the A & I in your palm for a clean downstroke. Depending on the situation you may repeat this three times (Alegrias) or more and may sometimes end with a thumb upstoke, it depends on the compas.

Some other rasguedos use A(down)I(down)A(up)I(up).

These are just a few examples, there are many situations that use combinations of down & upstrokes of all the fingers. Practicing these rasguedos slowly and with regular rests will slowly build muscle strength until you can do them cleanly and accurately like second nature.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2014 13:39:06

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Stu)

Better a well used thump as a badly used index :-)

If it doesn't hinder you and you like the result why not, although i wonder how ecenomical it is. Personally i favor to use the index most of the time which is trained to end up just below the treble(s) i want to plug in between my (single note) thump actions.... were possible the upstroke of the index is a side effect of bringing the hand up for the next round. Up strokes with the thump i mainly save for situations were previous actions brings it in a similar "natural position" for upwards plugging (beneath the strings that has to be plugged) like during alzapua and various types of rasgueados.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2014 14:21:40

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Cloth Ears)

Cloth ears; stamina is useful for guitar. Strength much less so. 100 metres runners are noticeably more muscular than 800 metres runners. A real fast 100 metres lasts around ten seconds, an 800 around one hundred seconds. A guitar solo on a modern recording anything from three to eight plus minutes, a concert about an hour or so. 10000 metres runners tend to be genuinely slight as they don't have the luxury of carrying wasteful and unnecessary muscle as their higher training load is less forgiving of strain and overuse. But they tend to have longer careers.

Style and stamina are good things to aim for in your hands, strength and speed follow. Put the cart ahead of the horse at your peril.

Stu I think that if I were you I would worry that I hadn't noticed. Practice has a lot to do with learning to observe yourself. If you don't know what is happening then there is probably a lot you are not realising. Of course I know this from personal experience of my own obliviousness.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2014 14:31:55

Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

hey guys, sorry if I'm unclear.
Yeah Todd I mean compas strumming. in its most basic form. If I was playing one compas of alegrias I can upload a vid later maybe. To me it sounds good and doesn't hinder me yet but got to thinking that maybe somewhere down the line it might become an issue. Maybe it wont...

quote:

although i wonder how ecenomical it is

That's what I was thinking!

I am actually comfortable playing with index upstrokes too and I do if it's needed in faster more complex passage of compas, thumb just seems to make more sense.

Thanks for those tips cloth ears but I'm adept at all those rasgueados. Thats not really what I was getting at. I have been playing for some years. (thanks tho, don't want to sound arrogant, I'm not. always learning)

quote:

Stu I think that if I were you I would worry that I hadn't noticed. Practice has a lot to do with learning to observe yourself

Hey buddha that's a good point. I do observe myself (or try to) but yeah its easy to get into a way of practicing and playing and forgetting to do so. good to be reminded! I actually knew a long time ago I did that and was aware of it but just started musing on the matter earlier

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2014 15:57:29

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Stu)

i do that often when accompanying dance on stage...my index finger gets tired and the skin gets sensitive if i do it too much, so sometimes i substitute it with pulgar upstrokes...of course, that will get your wrist tired easier, so it's best to alternate...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2014 17:46:55

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Stu)

I'm guilty as well, thumb upstrokes give you good accents on the and beats and brings out the bordones strings. I like it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2014 17:50:15

Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

that will get your wrist tired easier

ahh yes it does. good point. something for me to consider

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2014 18:33:09

Cloth Ears

Posts: 152
Joined: Apr. 26 2005

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Cloth ears; stamina is useful for guitar. Strength much less so.

Strength is required for stamina to be available. You basically need muscle for enough strength to perform difficult actions and stamina is another property available thereafter. I agree that stamina is another property of muscle that is useful but feel you are just talking about angels on pinheads. Nobody choses strength or stamina, just repeats actions to build muscles, none of which are unecessary.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2014 8:05:04

Tomas

Posts: 22
Joined: Aug. 16 2013

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Stu)

I don't think there's anything wrong with thumb upstrokes in general, but I agree it has to come from a conscious decision.

In general I think it's a good to be able to use different techniques to accomplish the same thing rhythmically, in order to achieve different tone colours.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2014 8:34:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

is this a big problem??

Yes. Stop it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2014 8:29:01

Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

yes, stop it.

Ha, for some one that has usually got plenty to say (in a good way) that's a pretty minute answer.... Would you care to elaborate?

I respect your advice enough to stop without any elaboration from you but it might be interesting

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2014 14:08:08

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

quote:

yes, stop it.

Ha, for some one that has usually got plenty to say (in a good way) that's a pretty minute answer.... Would you care to elaborate?

I respect your advice enough to stop without any elaboration from you but it might be interesting

dynamics are important...to me anyway. Strumming with the wrist all the time is effective but sounds different....I personally save it up for when I need it. There is way more versatility with the index finger IMO.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2014 14:33:22

Stu

Posts: 2526
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ah ok, thanks Ricardo.
I've been attempting to correct this habit. It's proving fairly straight forward apart from when I've played a thumb downstroke on the twelve.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2014 11:41:53

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Thumb upstrokes in place of inde... (in reply to Stu)

quote:

It's proving fairly straight forward apart from when I've played a thumb downstroke on the twelve.

Hmm.. if that is "wrong", then I might be doing it wrong too.

So, when I play an A(b9) and do the bulerias thing right on 12 (G string, fret 3)... is it wrong to work that string only with the thumbnail?

I think I usually to this:

G ------3--3--0--0--
D --2----------------

Pulgar sequence to play these 5 notes: down - down - up - pull off - up (could be down but I prefer the lighter "naily" sound that the tip of the nail on the upstroke gives).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 2 2014 17:19:50