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RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz is desirable, how much tolerable?
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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 RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz ... (in reply to Leñador)
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Ramon, did you get a name change recently?? How'd you do that? I'd like to add an ñ to my name............
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Yes, I changed from "Prominent Critic," which was actually just a little personal injoke with myself.
I was the classical and flamenco guitar critic for both the Los Angeles Times and the L.A. Herald-Examiner at the same time. One week I reviewed a concert on a Friday night for one of them, and on that Saturday night for the other, and by chance they both appeared on the same day in the Sunday papers.
I went to a party that Sunday night, and when I walked in one of my friends said jokingly, "Here comes the prominent critic," or something like that. As frequently happens, the monicker stuck, and from then on I couldn't get away from it.
So when I joined I just used it as sort of a personal joke. But I thought that was enough of that, so I changed it.
Ramon
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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date May 20 2014 21:07:02
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Leñador
Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles
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RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz ... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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Now you're a woodsman.
Nice, thanks Simon! I feel legit now! lol
quote:
I went to a party that Sunday night, and when I walked in one of my friends said jokingly, "Here comes the prominent critic," or something like that. As frequently happens, the monicker stuck, and from then on I couldn't get away from it.
Yup, mine's an inside joke too. A lot of the guys I work with call me "El Leñador" 'cus I'm bigger then most of them and I've got a beard, either that or Keser, because for some reason Kasey is IMPOSSIBLE for Latinos to pronounce lol I've started using "Kasey, como claro que si." That seems to help a lil but they emphasize the sey. Kasey haha
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Date May 20 2014 21:27:41
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz ... (in reply to El Burro Flamencuro)
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My Opinion is that: flamenco guitars naturally have a certain wetness to their sound(at least most do, some sound completely dry or woody though), that flamenco rasp/crispness...which varies between different guitars and different strings.
I'm not sure what you mean by "wetness" in flamenco guitars. To me it is that very raspiness, and in particular the crisp, percussive sound one finds in most Cypress/Spruce flamenco guitars, that I would characterize as "dry." In fact, I think that the "dry" sound of most flamenco guitars is one of the characteristics that differentiates them from classical guitars.
Cheers,
Bill
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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
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Date May 20 2014 23:05:10
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz ... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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Noone explaining on the difference between buzz and rasp, and on the measures taken by the builder to provide the latter?
When the action is low, the strings may rattle against the frets, especially on rasgueos. It gives a distinctive sound and I think this what most people mean by 'rasp' or 'rajo'.
But a buzz is an unpleasant sound, usually from one note or fret. It is usually caused by a single high fret. (although there can be many other causes)
That's my understanding anyway. Hope that helps.
That's not what rasp is - strings rattling against the frets is buzz. It's very hard to put into words what the sound of rasp is, but it's sort of like a bit of a growling sound from the belly of the guitar. It's the one single sound that distinguishes a flamenco guitar from a classical guitar, which never has rasp. A flamenco guitar can have rasp but not buzz, or can have both.
Ramon
I think I agree with Ramon. A good flamenco guitar has a capacity to slightly distort when you push it hard. And it doesnt come from the frets. It comes from the box. Its like when a good valve (hifi or guitar) amp slightly cut the high end of the tonal register. Thats rasp or rajo.
Its more present on lighter woods for backs and sides, so blancas rasp more than negras. And classica dont rasp or at least shouldnt do so.
This rasping does that especially long rasgueados become much more pleasant to listen to. The tones blend a lot better. Just like on a good valve amp compared to a transistor amp.
Fret buzz can be nice as well, if its controlable. Some like more than others and some strongly dislike it. But its not the same as rasp.
And..... what I just wrote is not something I just made up in my mind. I heard about that the first time some 12 - 13 years ago, when I was new here where I live.
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Date May 21 2014 7:24:06
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz ... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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Ok guys, if flamenco guitars are doing distortion you tell me where you plug them in?
Do you have a Marshall stack in your garage and humbuckers in your Conde's?
Guitars are guitars, you play flamenco on the one that feels right. If you ask me, which you did not, a guitar you play classical music on would sound better with some growl in the core of the voice.
Rasp is strange word because in English, it has certain connotations that means it is more like metal on metal or finger nails on a chalkboard. Rasp is unpleasant.
Ok I'm not saying you are wrong for using that word, but guitar sound really boils down to semantics debates. Not everyone will agree a certain word covers the concept of a sound.
A guitar that is typically used for flamenco can have a core voice that is more narrow and less full and round in tone. And the degrees of color in that narrow spectrum of sound are what flamenco heads listen for. Like the way a goof complicated wine flavor breaks down over your tongue, a flamenco guitar has a first bite and an after taste. It has a way of breaking down in the ear. Why? Because the top is more loose side to side, the ribs thin, light, less mass.
A guitar that people call more flamenco shakes more internally, the whole instrument is looser, the tension of the strings can be felt. If you have ever gone fishing much you know heavier fishing poles with heavy line do not transmit the strike of the average fish as dramatically as a light pole with light line. A flamenco guitar is a lot like fishing for big fish with light tackle. It's like a sports car with a big engine and small quick maneuverable frame and turning base. It stops and starts fast and the engine growls because cylinders are really big in diameter and they pulsate your body when you flood them with gas.
The classical guitar is like your grandmas Lincoln Continental. Regal, sustain, 4000 lbs of marshmellow with a huge engine. Suspension that could ride an elephant. ( no poaching please) - You hit the gas and it sails to 90 or 100 miles an hour in under ten seconds and you hardly feel you're moving. Suicide style doors and your grandmas name custom embossed on the glove box lid at the dealership in 1963. And the Lincoln still goes like a Mother Fu...ker
Flamenco and classical guitars- two kinds of bad ass cars. No rasp, just purr. One purrs like a feral cat that in heat, one purrs like a pedigree Siamese. It's not that difficult to understand.
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Date May 21 2014 13:15:22
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz ... (in reply to estebanana)
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Rasp, strange word. It's fret noise.
I have used the word "rasp" - and have heard it used by others in the world of professional flamenco - for thirty five years. So this is not a new word as used here. A cursory search took me exactly one minute to find the following blurb about a Marcelo Barbero flamenco guitar. This is from Zavaletas Guitars.
"Marcelo Barbero (1904-1956) was trained by José Ramirez II. When Santos Hernandez died in 1943, his widow asked Marcelo to complete some guitars that Santos left unfinished. Although Santos had been very secretive, Barbero was equally astute-- and the flamenco guitars he built after this are magical. This guitar offers everything professional players demand in a fine flamenco guitar: its trebles sing, its basses are crisp. It projects and has great power, A TRUE FLAMENCO RASP, and notes that sizzle. It is set up perfectly--with a low, fast action that makes for great playability."
You said of the word "rasp" - "Rasp, strange word. It's fret noise." I will repeat, and Anders agrees, it is not fret noise. It's a unique sound that emanates from some flamenco guitars, more often a blanca, that can't be defined in words, but is immediately identifiable.
Ramon
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Date May 21 2014 15:31:48
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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You use your words (and many of them). Others use other words, but I have a feeling we are talking about the same thing. The good flamenco guitar is not producing the same sound and doesnt work the way the good classical guitar does and the good flamenco guitar has a certain degree of uncontrolability. rasp, growl, distortion, whatever.
We are talking about the same thing, the voice of a flamenco guitar that is intrinsically, gruff, growly *raspy* or any other verb you want to apply.
However the actual meaning of rasp is to rub two thing together or one against another to make a sound, usually irritating. The fundamental voice of a guitar remains in place regardless of whether the strings are rasping on the frets. If the strings are lifted high enough they will not touch the frets , but the voice will still have 'distortion'.
The reason why is the voice or distortion is built into the guitar with structure; the rasp is a variable factor according to how high or low the strings are on the frets.
So we Anders talking about the same thing, I agree. But far be it from me to change the definition of a word to describe sound if someone has used it to write advertising copy. We know advertising copy is the final literary decider.
When an adman speaks you better listen, it's George Bush saying "I'm the decider, I decide." The adman final word on words.....
Anders, I'm not negative, I'm sarcastic. I use raspy sarcasm.
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Date May 22 2014 0:46:38
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz ... (in reply to estebanana)
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We are talking about the same thing, the voice of a flamenco guitar that is intrinsically, gruff, growly *raspy* or any other verb you want to apply.
Well, as long as we're discussing language usage, it should be pointed out that "gruff" - "growly" - and "raspy" are not verbs, they're adjectives. But I'm sure you know that.
More importantly, what you say here is not the case with the word "rasp," and its usage with respect to a flamenco guitar.
" But far be it from me to change the definition of a word to describe sound if someone has used it to write advertising copy. We know advertising copy is the final literary decider."
This is an allusion to the ad copy I posted from Zavaletas about the Barbero, which used the word "rasp" to describe the sound of the Barbero guitar. However, there is no evidence that this usage of "rasp" originated in the world of advertising. Language does not evolve by fiat. There isn't a group of men sitting in a little secret room somewhere, compiling a list of words that they will then proclaim have new meanings.
It's the opposite. Language evolves through usage. Over time, usage changes. With respect to "rasp," its meaning has evolved to include its use to describe a certain sound made by a flamenco guitar. The ad merely incorporated what was already common usage within the world of flamenco for a long time.
Ramon
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Date May 22 2014 4:22:37
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Flamenco guitar - how much buzz ... (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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quote:
Well, as long as we're discussing language usage, it should be pointed out that "gruff" - "growly" - and "raspy" are not verbs, they're adjectives. But I'm sure you know that.
More importantly, what you say here is not the case with the word "rasp," and its usage with respect to a flamenco guitar.
" But far be it from me to change the definition of a word to describe sound if someone has used it to write advertising copy. We know advertising copy is the final literary decider."
ADVISORY: This post contains ironic humor and sarcastic quips.
I did not make it clear enough that I was being sarcastic. When I said: We know ad copy is the final judge on the definition of a word - I was being sarcastic. I was implying the exact opposite.
I was saying language directed by corporations, advertizing etc. often influence the use of a word; or a subculture like flamenco can adopt a word and change its meaning in a specific context. I've gone into Starbucks coffee and asked for a medium coffee, and clerk says you mean Grande'? And I say yes a medium. Why? because I don't like to use the language that Starbucks corporation wants me to use. Eventually maybe all coffees may be called Grande's, but until then I can still ask for a small, medium or large.
And as you say the word 'rasp' can be used to describe a flamenco guitar, but lets be clear about what rasp really means. If in NY you use the word rasp (verb) to describe flamenco guitar core voice then you should keep on doing that.
Rasp away at those axes. Maybe someday all flamenco guitars will be called Rasps:
Audience- "Hey man you totally shred on that rasp."
Player- "Cool dude thank you I try"
A. - "So Dude, where did get that bad ass rasp? and what kind of rasp is it?"
P. " I bought this rasp in Sevilla at the Guiri Flamenco Mart, it's Conde' rasp. "
A. - " Right on man, I love orange rasps. Some guys hate them, but those guys that hate Conde' orange raps are idiots. Any jerk who does not like orange rasps has adark closed mentality, like Dick Cheney. I would play an orange rasp like that any day. "
P- "Yeah , guys that bag on orange Conde rasps are sure dumb. It reminds me of the old farts that still call rasps 'guitars'. HA HA WTF? guitar? what a stupid word."
A- "Cool brother, rasp on."
P - "Fo shizzle- rasp on, rasp off, like Mr. Miyagi used to say."
A- "Ok later master rasper."
Not everyone will agree rasp is a positive word to describe a guitar. To me and others rasp has pejorative connotations and there is nothing wrong with using a word to mean its dictionary definition.
So in the the end it's tomaayto- tomahhto- You say rasp, and I say rasp, but yours means good and mine means annoying.
If you'll excuse me I need to go Xerox something.
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Date May 22 2014 5:56:01
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