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Antonio de Torres-Creator of the Flamenco Guitar
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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 RE: Antonio de Torres-Creator of the... (in reply to Don Dionisio)
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Thanks, Stephen, but I think it would make only little sense for me as long as there is my missing awareness about related periphery with plantillas, top shaping, bracings etc.
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But besides I have a thought that I would be interested to share with you builders, and possibly see what you think of it.
...
In youth I used to imagine early history and prehistory as rather primitive and worlds apart from todays technological skills. ( Which I think to observe as common sense view too.)
However, as mentioned on the foro before, there was much more of meticulous skills given in prehistorical times already than one would had thought. There have been found Ice Age speers rivaling todays high-tech specimens crafted for olympic standards, and all of special tools from scythe to indiviual tasks knives: Ancient specimens of flint stones already had the same corresponding shape as todays task-oriented and ergonomically developed high-tech examples of steel.
The amazing surprise of ancient intelligence seems not paralleled with items of much lesser occurance and less large-scaled building genesis, like the guitar.
Whether with direct mandolin-like predecessors of the guitar or even with older ones like oriental thin neckers: They appear to have undergone much less of refined evolution than other, more daily products did.
Be it that typical plantilla like shown above, which seems prove for little experimental / adaptive development, or for instance named oriental specimens who often to this day do not even provide an angling of the headstock, or even just regular fretting technique ( wired around neck instead of inserted fret wire) ... It seems to indicate an intellectual step-child breeding, with Torres´ ( or his generations / quarters invention) relatively accounting for a genius strike in this instruments genesis. - Which eventhough and probably born around the same time, before the Torres concept had not remotely as much ingeniousity as comparably tools had like scrapers or knifes already in flint stone age.
Sorry for the Pidgin. Hope you get my drift.
Ruphus
PS:
In the CG forum folks were always bewitched by the sight of vihuelas, which I never understood. They might be fun for travelling or occasional excursions, but ergonomically for long-term use: No thanks.
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Date May 16 2014 11:52:09
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Antonio de Torres-Creator of the... (in reply to Don Dionisio)
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Torres did work with a classical guitarist, Julian Arcas. Arcas definitely associated with the upper crust, playing for English aristocrats and the Queen of Spain. He held an honorary position on the staff of the Conservatory.
Arcas's concert programs contain names of flamenco palos, but published versions of, for example Soleares don't have the compas of the present day palo:
https://www.everynote.com/goods.1/Arc_G_Solea.pdf
Still, various biographical sources claim that Arcas played flamenco as well as classical.
Having read Brune's article some time ago, I find convincing his argument that during the later 19th century the market for guitars was largely in the flamenco world.
A specifically flamenco guitar design was developed before the evolution of the Torres model into the flamenco instruments of Santos Hernandez, Domingo Esteso, the Condes, Barbero et al. Early in the 20th century Jose Ramirez I, Manuel's older brother and teacher developed and sold a "tablao" model with a larger plantilla and narrower sides. It fell out of fashion.
quote:
Did Segovia have anything to do with it?
I don't know of a definitive list of all the guitars Segovia ever owned, but my strong impression is that he never owned or concertized on a Torres. Segovia consistently said that his first really great guitar was the Manuel Ramirez, generally considered to have been built by Santos Hernandez, given to Segovia in 1913 by Ramirez. It is the instrument studied by Hauser that in consultation with Segovia over a period of years eventually led to the famous 1937 Hauser that Segovia concertized with until the early 1960s. Segovia showed the Ramirez/Santos to other luthiers as well.
Manuel Ramirez felt himself to be in competition with Torres, even though Torres had passed away before Ramirez opened his shop. Jose Ramirez III tells the story in his book that his great-uncle Manuel made four guitars copying the cosmetic appearance of Torres instruments. He put his own labels in them, then pasted fake Torres labels over them. He invited the Madrid guitarists to his shop to try out the "newly discovered Torres guitars."
The pros and influential amateurs all agreed that the Torres guitars were still the best. Then Manuel peeled off the fake Torres labels and revealed his own underneath.
RNJ
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Date May 16 2014 15:06:48
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C. Vega
Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: Antonio de Torres-Creator of the... (in reply to C. Vega)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: C. Vega
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
I don't know of a definitive list of all the guitars Segovia ever owned, but my strong impression is that he never owned or concertized on a Torres. Segovia consistently said that his first really great guitar was the Manuel Ramirez, generally considered to have been built by Santos Hernandez, given to Segovia in 1913 by Ramirez. It is the instrument studied by Hauser that in consultation with Segovia over a period of years eventually led to the famous 1937 Hauser that Segovia concertized with until the early 1960s. Segovia showed the Ramirez/Santos to other luthiers as well.
I've never seen any references to Segovia ever having owned or performed with a Torres guitar but I would certainly think that he would have had the opportunity to play one or more of them over the years.
Prior to being given the guitar by Manuel Ramirez, Segovia was performing with a guitar made by the Granada luthier Benito Ferrer (1845-1925). Ferrer's descendents are still working in Granada.
The guitar given to Segovia by Ramirez started out as an 11-string instrument with pegs.
The most common version of the story says that it was made for the blind guitarist Antonio Jimenez Manjon (1866-1919). In an attempt to get a reduction in price, Manjon kept finding non-existent faults with the guitar which angered the proud Ramirez so much that he refused to sell the guitar to Manjon at any price.
Now he was stuck with an 11-string guitar which back then, just like now, was going to be tough to unload so Ramirez had his workmen cut down the head and neck, fit tuning machines and do whatever else was necessary to convert it into a much more marketable 6-string instrument.
A then very young Segovia came into the shop looking to rent a good guitar for an upcoming concert at the Ateneo in Madrid, Manuel found this to be rather novel and handed Segovia a cheap guitar to play. After listening for a few minutes he took the guitar from Segovia and said "This guitar is not for you." and told one of his workers to "Bring the guitar we made for Manjon."
Ramirez was so impressed with Segovia's playing that he gave the guitar to him.
By this time Manuel was most likely relieved and happy to finally be done with it but he was also a shrewd businessman who quickly realized that once people heard this young upstart play, and discover that he was playing one of Manuel's guitars, that customers would be flocking to his door.
I find it amusing to think that the legendary Segovia concertized for 25 years with what was essentially a recycled guitar.
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Date May 16 2014 22:03:51
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estebanana
Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Antonio de Torres-Creator of the... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
Torres did work with a classical guitarist, Julian Arcas. Arcas definitely associated with the upper crust, playing for English aristocrats and the Queen of Spain. He held an honorary position on the staff of the Conservatory.
Arcas's concert programs contain names of flamenco palos, but published versions of, for example Soleares don't have the compas of the present day palo:
https://www.everynote.com/goods.1/Arc_G_Solea.pdf
Still, various biographical sources claim that Arcas played flamenco as well as classical.
But the kicker is that Arcas and Torres met in a flamenco club and there was not a thing called "classical guitar" yet. It seems like Arcas was the one to encouraged Torres to become a professional and that he was playing in a variety of settings. It's still pretty safe to say there was no distinction between classical and flamenco guitars at that point an one could not have been derived from a fully realized version of the other.
In the Brune' research he points out that by using the entries in the musical dictionaries, the same references books which claim the flamenco guitar is derived form the classical guitar, he calculates the number of guitarists in Spain during those time and lists which kind of music they are credited with playing. The list reads as a who's who of 19th century flamenco playing and shows the very book which tried to say the classical guitar came first lists mainly flamenco focused players from the longest time span.
I know not everyone has access to Romanillos book, Brune's essay is posted here on the Foro, comparing the two texts if possible is informative.
Regarding Segovia and Arcas, it's interesting to note both players were deeply involved with flamenco; Arcas meets Trores in a flamenco ambiente and Segovia judges and plays in the 1922 Concurso of Cante Jondo. Both are involved with flamenco, but after this Segovia makes break and distances himself from flamenco.
Segovia had several motives for separating himself from flamenco, they had to do with his social status and his goals as a musician. I don't think Segovia set out to denigrate the flamenco guitar, but it certainly became a byproduct of his personal agenda. He found other guitarists as competitors both those who specialized in flamenco like Ramon Montoya and those who were composers like Barrios. And because he wanted to play Western "classical" music, which had not really been called classical music yet by the general public he put spoke about them as not being sophistcated and that they unlike him perpetuated a backward outlook.
It's interesting to note that Segovia thought so much of himself that when he shared the same hotel floor with Emanuel Feuermann the great cellist that he could only complain of Feuermann's constant practicing to his friend the Spanish cellist Gaspar Cassado who was housed on a different floor. In all his attempts and energy focused on legitimization of the guitar in the bigger picture of the Central European tradition of music I wonder if it occurred to him to knock on the door of perhaps the greatest cellist of all time?
Anyway, my own speculation on why Segovia choose Hauser asa person to make a guitar for him is that Hauser was from the country of Brahms, Beethoven and Bach; I speculate that consciously or unconsciously he knew that a guitar from Central Europe with the name of maker from that part of Europe would help him to persuade that the guitar was not just an Iberian phenomenon. But he did want tehSpanish format of the guitar as put together by Torres, he rejected the Stauffer format once he had a taste of his Santos built Ramirez. And he had other reasons to pick Hauser, as Hauser was a capable maker, but it's too juicy and tempting not to think Hausers being from greater Germany the same place the revered composers were form has something to do with Segovia choosing him over another Iberian made guitar which would have served his purpose just fine.
Just some of my own speculation on Segovia, which has nothing to do with the Brune' essay or Romanillos' book, but what I came to reason after looking at those and several other texts. But the part that is taken from the two texts we are discussing goes up until the time Segovia makes break from flamenco and think it is important to realize up until Segovia's break with flamenco there seems not to be the conflicted internalized problem of different kinds of music mingling together. It's only after Segovia uses his clout to separate out the musics does the damage really occur.
This really interesting because now since the separation is so definite flamenco players use the specialization to set themselves apart from other types of music. But as time goes by and more an more kids play flamenco a classical guitar at the same time the gaps spectrum of specialization are drawing closer. In the future we might be going forward to a model of guitarist more like Arcas who played all the musics and did not specialize; or are not shut out of one world of playing because they are advanced in another world. The worlds have collided and there's no going back to the old duality that Segovia set in motion.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date May 16 2014 23:09:53
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