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Discounts
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constructordeguitarras
Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
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 Discounts
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Ever have someone who offers to do you a lot of favors, like give you tools from his deceased father's workshop, buy you beers, lunch, etc., and then when he orders guitars or repair work from you asks for discounts specifically for those things you thought were gifts? When I give something to someone I don't keep a tally, I just give it and don't expect anything in return. If there are strings attached to a gift, I would like to know about them in advance. I had specifically asked how much he was going to charge me to take some pictures of me in my workshop a while ago, and he said, "nothing." Today when I saved his favorite guitar for him that he was no longer playing because he took his teacher's advice and ordered it with the nut too narrow--I made him a new nut with wider string spacing--I wasn't going to even charge him because I am tired of being asked for discounts. But he insisted, so I gave him a reasonable price...and he asked for a discount because of the pictures he took for me. So, after building two discounted guitars for him, I finally said something. And he immediately said it was nonsense and ended our relationship. I feel that I was right, but I know there are different ways of seeing things. How do you see things like this?
_____________________________
Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
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Date May 1 2014 0:19:36
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C. Vega
Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: Discounts (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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Many years ago I worked in a long-established downtown tobacconist's shop that primarily sold pipes, tobacco and fine cigars. We did, however, carry a few brands of cigarettes as a convenience for some of our customers. The owner would have preferred to not sell them at all and since we didn't sell a lot of them our prices were on the high side.
One day a guy came in and asked for a brand of cigarettes that we did have. Our price way back then was $1.50/pk.
Apparently looking to get a reduction in the price, the gentleman bellowed out, "They're only $1.20 at the pharmacy on the corner!"
I asked, "Why don't you buy them there?"
He said, "They're out of them."
I replied, "Oh, I see. Well, when we're out of them ours are only $1.10."
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Date May 1 2014 2:55:16
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Discounts (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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As Ruphus points out, we use the word "gift" to mean something in northern European culture. We translate words in other languages as "gift", but the foreign words in fact mean different things in different cultures. And things that we tacitly expect to give or receive as gifts are carefully accounted for as articles of exchange in other cultures.
The idea of a gift in America or northern Europe, which is given with no expectation of return, and no "score keeping" is pretty much absent in some cultures. But I would submit that the idea of a "pure gift" is something of an abstraction, even in American and northern European culture. When we give a gift, we expect at least good will in return. But often we allow for the fact that we may misjudge, and give a gift without receiving the expected good will in return. In this case, we see the responsibility as our own, not the recipient's, if it is not a breach of formally codified etiquette.
In my subculture, if you give a wedding gift, it is the height of rudeness for the bride not to send a thank you note. In my subculture it is taboo to account for the commercial value of a gift. But we do it tacitly. In the case of a recent family wedding, I scanned the articles in the bridal registry, with their prices listed, calculated where I stood financially relative to the other guests, and selected a gift accordingly. When I parked at the party after the ceremony, I surveyed the assembled cars to verify my standing. We don't talk about this. It would be the depth of bad manners. But we do it.
When it comes to compensation for work in one's trade of profession, in my subculture that is handled punctiliously. There are a number of doctors and lawyers in my immediate and extended families. One would never ask such a person for free advice. I might ask my brother if he would recommend an ophthalmologist, but I would never ask his advice for an eye problem. Nor would he fail to inquire why I thought I needed an eye doctor. But it would be up to him to offer, or not to offer advice.
So in my subculture it would be way, way out of line to expect a discount on a guitar from someone I had given some tools or wood.
But as Ruphus points out, there are cultures in which our idea of a gift is almost non-existent, between people who are unrelated. People keep score, in some detail. Within families, what we might see as gifts are more like obligations.
A constant source of friction in the Marshall Islands were the differing definitions of personal property and borrowing. If you didn't lock your bicycle, you would return after a few hours to find it gone. To an American this was theft. To a Marshallese, this was borrowing the bicycle to get to the port in time to catch the boat home. After all, presumably the "owner" of the bicycle had time to catch the bus, get to the port in fifteen minutes or less and reclaim the bicycle. But the boat home for the Marshallese left port on a strict schedule, and he might not have time to wait fifteen minutes for the bus or to walk to the port.
There are no private cars on the military base. If you had a certain status on the American scale, you could sign out the keys to a government pickup truck and go to the port to pick up your bicycle. This was against government regulations, and there were regular directives from the base commander to this effect, but the local cops knew better than to try to enforce it--or to try to arrest bicycle "thieves."
The Marshallese manager of the rental marina was a friend of mine. One day we were surveying my new boathouse and lot, one of his responsibilities. When this was done, he asked me, "Jernigan, why did John E. take my boat?"
I replied, "Some people say you were not making the monthly payments, so he took the boat back."
This was quite likely. Marshallese men with jobs went to the bank, cashed their paychecks and gave all the cash to their wives. She might hand him back a little walking around money, but not much. Then she stood outside the door and handed out money to the relatives lined up to receive their share. Marshallese men, even with very good jobs seldom had any cash.
My friend replied, "Then I want my lobsters back."
"What lobsters?" I asked.
He had been assigning one of his unemployed relatives to catch lobsters, and had been giving them to John E. at a rate that exceeded the value of what he owed on the boat each month. Lobsters were a delicacy to Americans. The very few I knew of who tried to catch them had no practical success.
"I'm afraid John E. must not have a line in his check book to write down 'lobsters'. "
My friend's eyes clouded briefly with tears at the injustice. I told him that if he expected to barter, he must explain it, and agree to a very specific bargain with the white people, who were utterly unaccustomed to it. And he should be prepared for them to reject the idea of barter and demand money.
My friend is very intelligent, over forty years old, and deals with white people every day, but his tacit expectation that a white person would automatically understand a barter transaction had led to severe disappointment.
I walk around my neighborhood here in Austin just about every morning. Today I read that 88% of the people over 25 year old have college degrees, 36 percent have advanced degrees. There are a sprinkling of people from India with very well paying jobs, judging from their houses and cars. The men dress American style, the older women often retain Indian style.
Some of the older women have learned the American habit of smiling and speaking to strangers or casual acquaintances they meet while out walking, others retain the Indian manners of not acknowledging the presence of men outside their family. It seems quite natural to me, having been exposed to a variety of gender dictated manners. If it's a woman who does not speak, I am careful to avoid eye contact.
Some of my neighbors complain of the "snootiness" of some of the Indian women.
"It's like they must think they are better than we are," one complains. He is a full professor of English literature at the University, a well travelled cultural sophisticate in American/European terms.
I have been traveling regularly to Mexico for the last 72 years, beginning when I used to go with my parents or grandparents. I speak the language well enough not to think about it most of the time. When I come back to the USA I find myself translating signs into Spanish.
My familiarity with Mexican customs and attitudes is much the same. Yet if I stay in Mexico for a couple of weeks, something is almost sure to happen that will infuriate me. The anger is not at the action or attitude of the Mexican, even if I end up feeling I have been taken advantage of. The anger is at myself, saying, "I should have seen that one coming, I know how to avoid that."
Usually a single jarring episode is enough to switch me over. Then things can run smoothly in Mexico for several weeks afterward.
RNJ
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Date May 1 2014 3:14:30
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Discounts (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras
My customer/friend was from approximately the same culture as me, but we differ greatly on this point. I got to feeling like I unwittingly allowed myself to be sold "gifts" that I had initially thought were just gifts. I tried to express my discomfort politely, but he took great offense and said he didn't have time for someone like me any more. I am saddened by this but at the same time I feel unburdened.
...I give stuff away all the time (including lots of refinishing and setup work to the guy I was talking about, which he apparently doesn't remember).
I would say it was his problem, not yours. But since you call him "customer/friend" it must have been painful.
I'm reading Jan Swafford's biography of Brahms. The composer was close friends with two of the greatest instrumental soloists of the time, Clara Schumann on piano and Joseph Joachim on violin.
Brahms freely showed them drafts of new pieces, soliciting their advice. Once he was satisfied with a piece, the soloists played them in concerts all over Europe and England. I'm sure Brahms didn't charge them for copies. But I'm also sure Brahms realized the advertising value he was receiving, and that he expected these very influential musicians to put in a good word for him in the right places, which they did unfailingly.
I never hear the hair raising alla zingarese finale of the Violin Concerto without thinking of the Hungarian Joachim, for whom it was written.
Brahms, being the pr1ckly character he was, probably would have cut them off if they had not followed the expected customs of the professional music community of the 19th century. But they did, and the three remained friends and supporters.
It can be difficult when work and friendship intersect. But Swafford indicates that the expectations were pretty clear in that era.
In our modern impersonal society it can be more difficult, since guidelines are not generally required. But as I said, I think it was his problem.
RNJ
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Date May 1 2014 4:34:45
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Discounts (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
...there are cultures in which our idea of a gift is almost non-existent, between people who are unrelated. People keep score, in some detail. Within families, what we might see as gifts are more like obligations.
In my experience, the idea of reciprocal obligations in giving gifts or doing favors for someone reaches its apotheosis in Philippine culture. In Philippine culture there is a very strong sense of reciprocal obligation that even has a name. It is called "utang na loob," or "obligation within," or "internal obligation." It goes way beyond returning a favor. It is on the order of a categorical imperative. If a Filipino does someone a favor or gives someone a gift, it is not done or given with the thought that he will get something in return. It is so ingrained that he does not even think about it. When he needs something that the original recipient of his favor or gift can provide, the Filipino will ask for the favor without even thinking that it represents reciprocity. It is one of the primary lubricants of Filipino culture. It is also one of the reasons that the Philippines is corrupt, inefficient and lags behind economically, as opposed to, say, Singapore, which is one of the least corrupt societies, particularly when compared to the Philippines. In some respects "utang na loob" is part of the charm of the Philippines, but it exacts a very high price in terms of inefficiency.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 1 2014 4:42:04
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Discounts (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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Ethan, your story shows that your "friend" wasnt really a friend. Its a sad story and I can imagine how you must have felt. I wouldn´t have liked it at all and it makes you think if its worth the game. Fortunately, I have never had problems with friends buying from me, but:
If you dont like unreasonable discounts, dont try to sell guitars to Andalucian flamenco guitarists. I´m soooooooo tired of them.
I charge 3000,-€ for a 1A guitar and they normally show up 2 - 3 persons and only want to pay 1000 - 1500,-€. Thats not the worst. The amount of stories they are capable of telling you, you cannot imagine. They use all excuses. Crisis, their car, their mother in law, the telephone. Whatever.
I got so tired of that last time some showed up starting their usual show, I smiled and told them to come with me outside, because I had something in the car that I wanted to show them. When we came out, I asked if they had something inside my house, which they didn´t and so I said goodbye and went in.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date May 1 2014 8:05:49
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constructordeguitarras
Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
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RE: Discounts (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Anders, I'm sorry things have been so rough for you!
When I deal with people like that, if they are artists whose art I really like, I prefer to just give them the damned guitar rather than try to sell them anything. I end up feeling better.
The customer I have been complaining about is very prosperous and it always made sense to me that he should want to do things for me since I can't afford anything, so I accepted. I think it is very childish of him not to be able to even listen to anything critical of his behavior. After a night tossing and turning I now realize that I am better off not having him as a friend, because I was always trying to convince myself that he was reasonable, when he was not. He is also one of those people who does all the talking, even asking many questions and not leaving space for me to answer any of them before asking the next, and then he has to leave....
_____________________________
Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
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Date May 1 2014 15:18:23
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