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RE: Why all the Reyes copies?   You are logged in as Guest
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Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to flamencositar) 
What about this one?
Anyone any experience with this one?

http://www.siccas.de/en/antonio-morales-nogues-2014-serrucho/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2014 17:35:47
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Ricardo) 
ricardo, is the guitar pictured a conde conde or the brune conde? if anyone could pull of a copy of just about any guitar it would be brune. it would be interesting to see if someone were to grab the specs of his main conde and then publish them. i wonder if the production would rival the guitars built patterned after the 51 barbero.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2014 18:24:32
 
hdg1192

 

Posts: 2
Joined: Jun. 26 2011
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to flamencositar) 
I have a heavily damaged Antonio Marin. I need someone to stabilize it to a playable condition. Anyone interested?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2014 18:51:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to keith) 
That is Brune's work. The original had the worst finish ever....looked like some one got a paint brush and slopped some uneven orange paint all over it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2014 18:51:54

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I saw a photo of a 60's era Arcangel and the finish details are uncanny similar to my 73 sobrinos de esteso. Same coloring and inconsistencies, some splatter on the tie block, cover the poor rosette, etc. If some one said the same person finished BOTH guitars I would believe it.



It wouldn't surprise me at all.
Spanish guitar making shops, including the "famous" ones, have a long history of outsourcing their finishing work to subcontractors. This includes both French polishing and spray finishing. They may do some F.P. in-house, largely for show these days, but the bulk of it is farmed out and most finishing shops work for several different makers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2014 18:57:34
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Arash) 
When I lived in Granada, there were at least 3 pro French polishers.
We all used them. The quality of especially one of them was the best I´ve ever seen.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2014 7:12:45
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Arash) 
I saw an Antonio Marin once and the FP as astounding.

I wish I had access to a pro FP I could build twice as many.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2014 7:30:09
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Arash) 
Yes those were the days of easy life. But its years ago, and to be honest, there is something about doing it all yourself.
Anyways if I built twice as many guitars, I doubt that I could sell them all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2014 15:17:29
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to keith) 
What does it matter, who made the guitar? If it works, OK. What matters is who is playing it and whom he is accompanying
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2014 15:30:51
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

What does it matter, who made the guitar? If it works, OK. What matters is who is playing it and whom he is accompanying



As strange as it may seem, the history of guitars and master builders is more prominent than recording artists.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2014 16:14:44
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

As strange as it may seem, the history of guitars and master builders is more prominent than recording artists.


I think thats your very personal perception of how things are. And it says a lot about yourself. Did you forget about players like Paco? His importance is 100000 times bigger than all your socalled "master builders"

I agree with Morante. A guitar is a tool. made to make players express their art. All this focus on some builders is putting emphasis in the wrong place. The guitar in itself is nothing more than a wooden box with a stick and some strings on. We the builders should be humble and not try to be the stars of the show.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 7:07:54
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Arash) 
I think what Tom is referring to is from a historical perspective, the instrument is what is more likely to continue to live in on in people's awareness. It's a physical object, and will outlast us all, even if it's not a viable musical instrument.

Everyone knows the name Stradavarius but how many of us can name contemporary players he built for? Tieffenbrucker, Lacote, Panormo etc may not be household names but the names of those they built for are even less so (with the exception of Napoleon Coste, everyone knows him.)

I don't think this is an across the board, applies to all rule though. Hauser, Bouchet, Torres…ok. Those of us on this forum…the jury will be out for the next hundred years or so.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 12:13:36
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

We the builders should be humble and not try to be the stars of the show.


I understand that point of view, and in a way admire those musicians who regard instruments with relatively little attention / all focused on the music. Also recognizing the souvereignity with your step-fathering to your babies.

But there are guys like me who eventhough passionately appreciative of music as such, are being sonic suckers in the first place.
Had I to stay with my very first own guitar, which was a complete dud of the name Hohner I would had possibly put music making aside. ( No idea how I made it through those one or two years with that dang.)
For types like me the pleasure from sonics makes half of the muscial inspiration.

And how in the world >sniff< can you call a fine guitar a "tool", like some predictive pipe wrench.
I am over and over again blown away about the magic this simple instrument does.

If not knowing better, I would be looking inside for heaps of toothed gearings, pins, tubes and what have you that ought to manage these heavenly spreading vibes, with all their partials and indescribable complexity.
A good builder produces living magic of dead material.

If it ought to be a tool, please call it "NASA sound device" or "hypercongenial hypocampus blowing wave emitter" or such.
Thank you muchos.


Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 12:48:12
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

I think thats your very personal perception of how things are. And it says a lot about yourself. Did you forget about players like Paco? His importance is 100000 times bigger than all your so called "master builders"


Anders, you miss the point as usual. I was quoting Richard Brune, and it's a historical fact that certain instruments out live the performers, in name.

Many performers names die out in Antiquity but the master built instruments live on. I didn't plan it this way, it's just a fact.

It is difficult to collect the music of a great performer without putting it in storage to rest. I have 40 + albums of Sabicas in storage I have not listened to in 20 years.

Paco, on the other hand, may his name live on, Ole!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 13:49:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

I agree with Morante. A guitar is a tool. made to make players express their art. All this focus on some builders is putting emphasis in the wrong place. The guitar in itself is nothing more than a wooden box with a stick and some strings on. We the builders should be humble and not try to be the stars of the show.


For me a player, the guitar is so much more than that, and the importance of the person(s) behind making it too. There have been times the guitar was my only close friend and companion and I have spent countless hours marveling at her details, even the "faults". And each one is different...I can't imagine what would life be like if I had only ONE. I often look down at my gyspy kings rumba guitar as a "tool", cheap and lacking in so many ways, yet such a necessity in my work. But even still, there are days I stop and take a good look and even she is an amazing piece of art, faults and all.

I admit, I think it does luthiers no service to bad mouth other instruments and makers publicly, which I find A LOT in the internet world and find it quite odd. In that sense some humility could be helpful, but for sure there can certainly be well deserved pride in ones own creations.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 13:51:42
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
tom, the general rule is that when you quote somebody you acknowledge that what was said is a quote and you cite the source.

even though a particular guitar may achieve "historical" status it is the player who makes the guitar "historical". THE 51 barbero is a great guitar. it was sabicas who made that guitar historical. in the hands of the original owner, carlos montoya, that guitar may not have achieved historical status that it has. and sabicas will always be remembered as the maestro who knew how to ride that thoroughbred race horse as well as ramirez guitars.

i do agree with aaron's point--a given luthier may achieve historical status for the guitars he has built for many guitarists. barbero would have achieved historical status even if sabicas had not played his 51 masterpiece. likewise for hauser if segovia had stayed with a ramirez. i think sabicas and segovia helped to light the spotlight for the two luthiers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 15:22:08
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

I agree with Morante. A guitar is a tool. made to make players express their art. All this focus on some builders is putting emphasis in the wrong place. The guitar in itself is nothing more than a wooden box with a stick and some strings on. We the builders should be humble and not try to be the stars of the show.


It is very humble of you [and I am not surprised] to belittle your work. However, I must disagree with your and Morante's excessively cynic and frigid approach: I propose that Guitar [or violin] making falls between the Artisanal and Artistic categories of crafts, but is endowed by yet another unique element, the engineering of its sound. It is not a tool, but an instrument, and then it is more than an instrument, it is ART in its own right.

It is true that musicians will give a voice to the instrument, but a fine instrument can and has been a tremendous source of inspiration for many artists. One can dismiss my view as overly enthusiastic, but I admire a guitar maker's industrious genius imbued in every aspect of their work and revealed in the finished product.

A Luthier made instrument, to me, is nothing short of a work of art.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 15:28:06
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
quote:


A Luthier made instrument, to me, is nothing short of a work of art.


A work of art lives in a glass case in a museum. A guitar lives on stage in the hands of an artist. That is why, from time to time, I lend my guitar to a tocaor who can play it better than I ever could: I consider myself lucky to own it, but have no right to deprive it of its life and consign it to a wardrobe.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 15:54:42
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

A work of art lives in a glass case in a museum. A guitar lives on stage in the hands of an artist. That is why, from time to time, I lend my guitar to a tocaor who can play it better than I ever could: I consider myself lucky to own it, but have no right to deprive it of its life and consign it to a wardrobe.


I concur: "I consider myself lucky to own it"
I dissent: "A work of art lives in a glass case in a museum"

Had the pleasure to have drinks with this young and promising artist, here holding Antonio Stardivari's sonorous Art:



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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 16:01:20
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

A Luthier made instrument, to me, is nothing short of a work of art.


Considering how there is preceding vision and aim together with corresponding ability to make aimed effects come concretely alive to thirds ...
To my understanding that is what makes art, indeed.

I remember in Balkan souvenir shops ( like of Albania or Yugoslavia ) those locally manufactured guitars and yukuleles ... Wich I suppose would be found at many countrie´s Airport souvenir shops, in qualities very similar to each other ...

Seeing how even entry level guitars suffice to spoil one´s ear and diaphragm, I assume it could be needing kind of those souvenir axes for someone to play on for a while and then come back refreshed to celebrate the sonority and wonder of fine guitars.

At least for those who be spoiled or distanced enough to not be touched by the flair of the guitarra. - Naturally, not thinking of you, Anders. - ( Which are no little in numbers, at least where either the culture defames music or where youngsters have been raised with monotony as music. I have experienced so many, grown up that way, who have very little to no musical perceptor. And I sincerely pity them as poor beings, robbed of an essential ingredient in human life.
- Just today I was talking about those with music-banning culture and their insensibility for nature and fellow creatures, where the frigidity is quite the same as with music.)

Even plants have lately been found to have cells that make them hear ( and it is known since decades already that they will actually grow better when exposed to certain music, like waltz for instance ) which only emphasizes what in terms of degeneration has occured to human individuals who are deprived of musical sensibility.
They are outperformed by plants, or better to say: vegetating.
Emotionally deprived shadows of human´s self.
-

Just had to get rid about this sad condition while the hampered are around in hundreds of millions.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2014 16:17:54
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
quote:

Had the pleasure to have drinks with this young and promising artist, here holding Antonio Stardivari's sonorous Art:


Ah, funny enough, it almost looks like the music tool I finished a few month ago and which I sold to a young guy in Sevilla. And I am very proud of being an artesan making advanced musical tools.



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Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2014 6:38:45
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

Anders, you miss the point as usual. I was quoting Richard Brune,


No Tom, I didn´t miss the point. I answered exactly to what you wrote, which was

Quote: As strange as it may seem, the history of guitars and master builders is more prominent than recording artists. quote end

I have no idea what you are referrring to if you dont mention it, so please take your "as usual" and give it to yourself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2014 6:43:11
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: Why all the Reyes copies? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
I'm sure RE Brune was quoting someone else, as it is a known fact in the music industry......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2014 18:43:23
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