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RE: Can someone explain why these two guitars sound SO different?
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rojarosguitar
Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
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 RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Ruphus)
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 no problem with me. I already gathered, this is a place of quick shots and smoking guns , so it doesn't come as a surprise that anything I could say or write may provoke all kinds of reactions ... but I enjoy being here and don't mind being shot at as long as there is still some humor in it.
As to guitars, no Reyes (though I saw recently one I could like ), I enjoy playing a second cheapest Mundo Flamenco house model (3AF which was 590 Euro at the time I bought it and now is 690 Euro, thus still being one of the cheapest flamencas you can get anywhere) and I think it is as good as it is fitting my poor playing, and ore than that, I think, this guitar is the least and smallest obstacle in becoming a great player ... I even think, this guitar could compare with many guitars ten times more expensive ...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
Never mind, Rojarosguitar.
Reading your comment again I think to see where you are coming from / being congruent to the post you responded to.
Sorry!
Ruphus
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Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
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Date May 1 2014 10:32:50
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rojarosguitar
Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
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RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Ruphus)
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Ruphus, In my original post I didn't say a word about the Marin guitar itself, I was just describing my impression how these three guitars effected the player.
My point is that everybody reacts differently to different instruments; so apart from some valid quality criteria like intonation and quality of making most other things depend heavily on the interaction player-instrument. Nothing more and nothing less.
So by no means I wanted to imply that Antonio Marins' guitar was in any way inferior to the other ones...
BTW it was a Antonio Marin guitar that brought me to Granada 1983, becaused I played that guitar in Berlin and found it so fantastic. So I'm not so totally new to quality guitars, but I'm not a religious follower of pompous brand names. A good guitar is a good guitar even if it is made in a chinese factory...
As to sound memory I fully agree.
Recently I was with a friend of mine at Mundo Flamenco and asked the shop owner to play different guitars, from his cheapest model up to the most expensive 'Rolls-Royces' of the flamenco guitar scene. Now, that was a pudding proving, I can tell you.
The 3AF came away quite well here and my own fun to play it was confirmed through this immediate comparison. Now, the shop owner could be suspected of some agenda to sell the cheap model, especially knowing that my friend is not going to buy a 5-9k€ guitar.
But my impression was that Johannes very honestly tried to just get out of the guitar what could be gotten and was not biased (well, just my perception).
_____________________________
Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
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Date May 2 2014 15:06:49
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Ruphus)
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From my mail chats with him my impression is that Johannes Inhoffen is being an upright no-BS person and trying to be helpful when he can.
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Not explicitely disputing that a cheapo can excell ( I have a cheap parlor guitar that fully rivals top of the shelf specimens ), but ...
In most cases when a lucky-strike factory guitar seems to match fine builds, the difference will be in the depth of tone. ( Which is something that I personally appreciate a lot.)
For instance, I own a cheapo classical guitar labelled "Serena" ( no one knows where it´s from. It´s lable saying "made in Spain" likely being fake) whichs response and clarity is way from what you expect in that price range. And even in the critical range of upper register she sings and sustains remarkably well.
And I venture to say that only few of average listeners could tell this axe apart from good guitars in the up to ~ 10 grands shelf.
With everything well in place from balance, separation to intonation and even groove, what is it missing? Depth of tone, or maybe call it substance.
I have experienced only one relatively cheap guitar with substance of tone so far, and that is a handmade Latin American guitar that could need a ripping of its much too thick finish, and possibly even some thinning of the soundboard.
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Only wanting to say: Substance of tone is where to my ears things typically and primarily devide between good and special. ( With it somewhat effecting further aspects too, naturally.)
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Good to see that you know yourself about the magic A.M.M. can do!
I got infected for life by a guitar of his in 1979 or so without knowing whose build it was. Hunting it since, and finding out only weeks ago. ( All the guitars I bought since as imperfect substitute!)
After that special experience I used to think of a trip to Spain one day, looking for such a guitar. But it never happened.
1983 you could still fetch finest of guitars for humble cash in Spain. Me was in USA then.
Amazing trip for several months, but a guitar with the spirit like of that A.M.M. would have done me even better over the course of all those years.
Anyway, now I know at least where it has been from.
Ruphus
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Date May 2 2014 16:21:39
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rojarosguitar
Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
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RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Ruphus)
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When I was in Granada looking for a classical guitar at that time, I went straight to A. Marins workshop, naive as I was. He just chuckled; he didn't have a single guitar to try in his workshop, not even to speak of one to sell. His waiting list was at that time something like two years if I remember right.
I bought a René Baarslag classical guitar (he's still around, but moved out of Granada into the country side ... and being around after 30 years and still building guitars means something, I think). He was one of the very early students of Antonio Marin and I think he has absorbed a lot from the maestro, though his building style and also tonal ideas are different from A.M.
I still have this guitar and it has slowly and steadily developed. It looks really seasoned now as the spruce has got this warm color of aged spruce. It's structurally and optically totally sound.
At that time I had also bought a José López Bellido flamenca (blanca) with wooden pegs (it was less than 600€ then ...), but living in Bavaria I didn't have a good teacher (actually none) for flamenco at that time and became frustrated and gave up on flamenco for long time and sold that guitar, without really appreciating its beauty...
I think I understand what you mean by talking about 'depth of sound' and quite surely the cheap flamenca I was talking about doesn't have the highest subtlety of great or special guitars (which are rather rare anyway).
But I feel it is adequate with myself also being not a great player and I believe, if I really develop the skill to use all the subtleties of a great guitar, then it will start to make sense to look for one and it might even come (though not all wishes are granted ...)
anyway thanks for the interesting dialogue, Ruphus.
_____________________________
Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
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Date May 2 2014 17:00:32
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Ruphus)
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Rojaros,
Personally I am very bad with comparing strings. I will mix things up etc. and the fact that exchanging worn out ones against crisp new ones won´t exactly help for a levelled evaluation is not helping it either.
All in all my hand and ears like Augustine blue basses best and I have not been enterprising enough to find out whether any of my guitars could be preferring another set. ( The tried sets so far at least could not outperform my favorite.)
And I saw Anders just these days saying something to the extend that a good guitar sounds good anyway, in that case at best leaving choice of strings to your personal preference in regard to pulsation.
I liked the idea, without wanting to contradict that there might be an individually best set of strings for each guitar.
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The guitar we talked about above could probably had made it with telephone-wire. 
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Erik,
If I had known how that guitar ranged in the guitar world performance wise, or if the case had been as relevant like for you father who prepared for a professional career, I would had probably made a phone call and asked for money, making an exception of my unreal principles of that time.
However my playing was worlds apart from your father´s skills and knowledge, and my expertise on the potential of guitars was below zero.
Sure, was I blown away about how this guitar was so different from the entry level axes I was familiar with, but hearing that it was bought for a mere 300 DM, I thought Spain would be cramped with guitars like that; and that I only needed flying down there and grab me one some day.
Can you say greenhorn´s newbie silly, clueless estimation.
I remember her face when I said like: "700 DM ..., really?" and she replying: "It is a [insert with certainty "Marin Montero"]!
She could had just as well been trying to explain quantum mechanics to me.
Little did I know of a hunt to come that would be lasting for about 35 years to date and for who knows how long yet.
Ruphus
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Date May 3 2014 15:06:32
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rojarosguitar
Posts: 243
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
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RE: Can someone explain why these tw... (in reply to Arash)
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Arash, I don't know about that. I have once tried a Pyramid set on a classical guitar and didn't like them, but I suppose they wouldn't exist if there were no people playing these strings, because any business has to sell their products to exist ...
For oud players the Pyramid lute strings are an industry standard of a kind (and they are expensive, so I don't think they would buy them if not for a reason).
But the point I was aiming at wasn't so much about brands as about tensions and materials.
Every guitar has a 'working point' meaning an optimum tension at which the top can vibrate most effectively with the biggest energy transfer. Exaggeratedly stated: A very stiff top will barely vibrate with too little tension, and a very soft top will be pushed (or rather pulled) to its' elastic limits even before the string starts to vibrate.
So choosing the right tension is the first step in bringing put the full potential of a guitar.
All the rest is about stiffness (not to be confused with tension) and inner damping of the string: they decide about the sustain and percussivity as well as about the overtone content of the tones.
And of course the uniformity of the diameter and density is necessary for a good intonation, but I suppose we're talking about strings fulfilling at least this requirement to some degree (although my friend and classical guitar maker Sebastian Stenzel has gone through the pain of measuring the diameter uniformity of many strings and has found that they deviate from the ideal more than would be ideal ).
Of course if you're lucky and have found a good sounding string set or the luthier have made the right choice for his guitar, then you're lucky and there is no need to search any further (I doubt though that there isn't always room for surprises and improvement).
Otherwise, especially if you play a lot and use up your strings quickly, nothings speaks against changing the type of strings and make your observations. I would start with the same brand you‘re using anyway and just go up or down with the tension and give it the time to settle and see how things work.
Because each brand has its' own philosophy concerning materials and winding methods, another brand can also bring out some aspects of your guitar that weren't there with your familiar string set.
Well, just a thought ...
_____________________________
Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
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Date May 4 2014 9:20:12
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