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Flamenco/Work/Karma
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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 Flamenco/Work/Karma
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Hi All,
Been going through some hard times lately. Last August my Dad unexpectedly passed away. I had to move in with my ailing Mom to caregive to her! On top of that I drive 3 hours round trip for a part time job
Pondering on how my life changed overnight, and wondering what the future will hold for me. I read statics of being unemployed in the U.S. and it seems so bleak!! So many people 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s, especially late 40s to 50s who lost their jobs and have been unemployed for quite sometime.
So many people with degree unemployed and then there are own foro members who are musicians, Ricardo, and Jason (yes, I know no longer member) make a decent living out of playing flamenco guitar.
They seem BRAVE to listen to their hearts and follow their muse instead of the daily grind! I realize that a working musician is NOT easy job either and I am sure it would be much easier working the day job grind for supporting a family and putting food on the table!
My questions is while it seems that MOST people who have the grown up day job seem to be struggling with loosing jobs and becoming unemployed, and loosing everything...While there are musicians either local or international who are able to play music and do fine!
Is it PASSION, TALENT, and KARMA??
I have heard about the "Laws of Attraction" and at first I thought it was BS, but, I am starting to wonder if what you really concentrate you really do attract...
I even had a rock guitar teacher who did nothing but playing bars and teach! This guy made a DECENT living out this. He has a nice house, family and always provided for them. He never struggled and is always happy, positive guy!
Kalo
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Date Apr. 7 2014 22:06:54
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to Kalo)
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I have a friend, a classical guitarist in his early 50s, who has the only continuing solo contract gig of any member of the Musicians' Union in New York City. When we saw him in New York last summer, he told me it was the worst it had been during the thirty years he had been making a living as a musician.
He said that before the big recession in 2008, he had been making as much as a player in the New York Phil. (around $120K per year) with his regular contract gig, and with a classical string group that he put together, and does arrangements for. Last summer he said he and his wife were just barely paying the bills. She busks in the New York City subways. She's good at it, and brings in some cash regularly, but you're not going to get rich busking in the subway. They live in an apartment that's been rent-controlled since the 1970s. You can't live in Manhattan any other way, unless you're bringing in pretty good money.
Pros here can tell you about the flamenco scene, but according to my friend, the rest of the pro scene on the East Coast is really down the tubes.
That's not to say you can't make it. But if you have any pro experience, you know it takes a lot more than being a great player.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 8 2014 1:02:38
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to keith)
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quote:
i wonder how much of affect technology is having on making a living as a musician. why hang out and listen to a busker and then toss into the case a dollar when you have your i-pod playing music into your ear buds? why take the time to learn an instrument when you have an app for that which can do something musically thereby supplanting the need or desire to learn an instrument-- therefore putting the person in a position to buy an instrument?
In the city I used to live in I knew a jazz drummer, top level, played in the pick up bands for soloists touring round from the US etc., a bit older than me,
and he told me in the seventies there were loads of live music venues, pubs, bars, clubs, restaurants, you could gig practically every night of the week, then at the end of the seventies they all disappeared.
I think there are one or two jazz venues there now.
clubs used to have dance bands, now they have dj's
_____________________________
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Date Apr. 8 2014 14:18:51
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to Kalo)
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Ugh, all this frightens me....
I truly hope the economy gets better, but, I highly doubt it. No matter who is in office...No one cares anymore...
I guess as the saying goes: If you can do something about it, then don't worry, If you can't do anything about it, then don't worry!
quote:
kalo, your rock and roll teacher may have had financial supports behind the scenes--inheritance, investments, wife's income, etc. thereby allowing a rock and roll life rather than a desk life.
Yes, his wife was working and I found out he was selling used guitars and equipment on the side 
Nonetheless he still was able to pay off his house, put food on the table and support a family.
quote:
he told me in the seventies there were loads of live music venues, pubs, bars, clubs, restaurants, you could gig practically every night of the week, then at the end of the seventies they all disappeared.
For me I saw the demise of live music ending in 90s As what Keith said regarding technology...I believe it to be true.
No one wants to hear live music anymore and Bar owners don't want to pay a band unless they can bring in a following which will enable the owner to sell liquor and make a profit..
I wonder if one day it will all change??
Kalo
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Date Apr. 8 2014 16:10:32
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
One important thing I learned is don't sell yourself cheap.
Spot on, Simon! Whether as a musician, a computer specialist, or a consultant of one sort or another, it is important to charge a respectable fee given one's level of competence. It can be disastrous to sell one's self short, as Eric van Goch related in his unfortunate anecdote above. If you don't have the confidence to charge a respectable fee, no one else will have confidence in you either, and you will be either passed up or taken advantage of in any case.
A year or two ago there was a thread on the Foro concerning whether or not flamenco guitarists (and other musicians) just starting out should accept gigs without charging a fee from restaurants, clubs, and other venues in order to "gain exposure." I hope members of the Foro do not accept this equivalent of indentured servitude. One can jolly well gain exposure while collecting a respectable performance fee, even if just starting out. If a restaurant or club thinks its worth having one perform, then it is worth paying for the performance.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 8 2014 20:00:41
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to Kalo)
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quote:
Over 20 years ago (when i was one of the very few flamenco players in the netherlands able to play over an hour of flamenco material solo) i received a phone call from local government seeking a 60 minute flamenco act for their spanish party the next day. Are you available and how much would it cost....oh and we don't have much to spend.
Normally i would ask 200,- but since i needed the money and it was very easy earned (it was only a 10 minute walk from my house) i decided to ask a very modest 100,-
Can you bring a dancer and a singer.....?......no i can't (and certainly not for that price)
Mmmmmmm...we really love to have singing and dancing as well.... sorry we'll try to find someone else who can but we might contact you again if we fail to find such a person.
That "someone else" happened to be a new student of me who enthusiastically informed me about his unexpected performance during the next lesson. A little surprised i asked him what the hell he had played during that hour because as far as i knew all he could play was the tarantas we worked on.
As it turned out he had indeed played that tarantas.... again and again and again until an hour had passed. Serves them well :-).
So they didn't want a singer and dancer at all, they simply could not believe someone asking a modest 100,- could be any good. So in stead they hired someone else, a very promising artist who charged 200,- so obviously had to be twice as good as the other one.
I guess part of Karma is the price tag you dare to show. I was a very cheap teacher as well so it took me 7 lessons (read 7 nights) to get that money from his pocked into mine.
My jaw is dropping, I am speechless 
quote:
A year or two ago there was a thread on the Foro concerning whether or not flamenco guitarists (and other musicians) just starting out should accept gigs without charging a fee from restaurants, clubs, and other venues in order to "gain exposure." I hope members of the Foro do not accept this equivalent of indentured servitude. One can jolly well gain exposure while collecting a respectable performance fee, even if just starting out. If a restaurant or club thinks its worth having one perform, then it is worth paying for the performance.
But what if you just know a basic solea compas and play that all night long with pay 
Seriously, I would be so embrassed to charge at this point of my playing. Not because I sound, awful, but, because of my lack of palos, and I am still a "die heart" student!!!
If I want exposure then I will just do a "youtube" video for my fellow foro members to critique
Kalo
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Date Apr. 8 2014 21:38:16
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to Kalo)
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quote:
Those are things which are so easy to say or write, but reality can be very different.
Sometimes you have to eat and sometimes you have to pay bills.
I should not be building and selling 2000,-€ guitars. But if dont, I end up in an economical disaster very soon. And so goes for musicians.
Here in Spain, even very good musicians get payed VERY little. And everywhere else.
So should they just stop working and stop eating or what. Is there a choice at all?
Finally, I´ve played in rock bands. We had gigs, we got payed. But not always. Sometimes, fun was in the free small gigs where someone helped you binging back the gear, you got food and drink and was together with a lot of nice people making a great party.
In the end, I dont think there are any rules or better ways. Life is a chaos and we have to accept that.
Seriously, I admire your tenacity Anders!!! I pray (and I hope that doesn't sound corny) that all GREAT luthiers such as you will be able to make a GREAT living out of making AWESOME guitars for a long time to come!!!
And, you are right Life is chaos and I guess the ones that survive are the ones that can cope and deal better with the chaos!
Kalo
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Date Apr. 9 2014 15:22:48
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Anders, Simon, I think both aspects are in play. Charging a market-level fee is usually a good business strategy for a bunch of reasons. One, you get more money; two, you will be treated with more respect; three, you will not draw the ire of your community of professionals; four, you will grow a base of clients who are used to paying market-level fees. The disadvantages of trying to grow a business with freebies or low prices are the opposite: One, you get less money per unit; two, you will be treated with less respect; three you will anger your community; four, you will grow a base of cheap clients who do not respect you.
Some examples of this in action: If you have well-paying clients, their referrals will tend to be of the same sort. If you try to start off with cheap clients or freebies, the business that sprouts from there will tend to be even more cheap clients or freebies.
The important word here is "business". If you are approaching it as a hobby or a vocation, these rules will possibly not apply.
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Apr. 9 2014 18:09:10
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to Kalo)
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quote:
It seems everything TANKED since the big recession of 2008!
Honestly, I saw it as a bunch of brainwash. Everything seemed quite "normal" to me, yet news media and people keep talking and talking about how bad it is, and over time they stop spending money and it all affects everything. It's still going on. I am not working much now as before but it is not because of any crisis...it's simply because the place I used to work a lot closed and changed owners....and nothing really to do with business in the sense there is no money to spend. Yet I have lost both the income from playing a couple nights, AND the steady networking that was going on. If I wanted to join the negativity and say, it's all going down hill because the 1% is out to get me and spray me with chem trails etc, then sure it's going to feel like that too.
As always, music has not ever been or ever will be money making thing. It's about networking...it might seem like karma, but it's about connections between people. If you are so proud you break those connections, you will end up somewhere else. Perhaps your pride, by chance, lets you experience a different crowd. At first you think you were so great and stuck to your guns or whatever that it carried you. But then your pride messes up your new connection and you are back at square one. You can stick to your thing or be political, or be a performing monkey, and still not make those connections that you need to move forward.
I think if media blasted to the world positivity and (even if not totally true) the economy has turned and is booming, you would see people out and about spending money and it would not take any time for the benefits of that to reach many. But meanwhile we have to pay the bills of course, but blaming others or karma or bad luck won't help. Remaining active is important. I found comfort in an interview of an old flamenco guitarist Esteban de Sanlucar that he had noticed, over decades, flamenco goes through periods of up and down popularity w the public and therefore work. I think it is just the way of the world in general, not just flamenco. Learning to ride that dynamic and not let it get you down when it is not going good is the trick.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 12 2014 9:24:03
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to Kalo)
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2008 was a repetition of its foregone crisis. - When was it, when the stock markets were wiped off by its big players, 1997 or so?
At that time over $ 50 trillion disappeared from private holders, state combines, and pension funds into private hands of a few. To which yet added a severe erosion through "privatisation" of states properties ( IOW stealing of communal assets) which is going on since about 3 decades now and seemed to be peaking in the nineties.
Considering the dimensions of the losses for the people since the eighties, how could Joe Average remain uneffected, unless spared by some rather exceptional, lucky circumstance to his individual, local or branch case.
Sure, psychology matters a lot to how you take it, but yet the most optimistic attitude cannot level out perverse creaming off of an excessive upper caste.
Ruphus
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Date Apr. 12 2014 10:20:22
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Flamenco/Work/Karma (in reply to Kalo)
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One interesting thing I have noticed is a distinct uptick in the amount of .01%ers and corporations hiring me, and a distinct drop in the amount of "normal folks". I have played in more mansions this last year than I can remember ever doing. Last week, I played in a house with over 50 rooms, 25' ceilings, marble columns, polished stone floors--and filled with original statuary. Its sole occupants were a couple, and I would speculate they plan to use it for less than 6 months a year since that is common practice for the wealthy in Arizona. On the other hand, I did play for a wedding a couple days ago where an old guy with a terrible cough, wearing a Jack Daniels hat and cowboy boots, tottered up and sat on some rocks near the other guests and tore through some Marlboros during the ceremony.
Guess which one tipped me? :)
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Apr. 12 2014 14:38:11
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