RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA

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zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

According to José manuel Gamboas "Guia libre de Flamenco"
este gitano(farruco)estaba emparantado con don Ramón Montoya Page 118

In lives and legends by Don Pohren
(farrucos) mother was a Moorish beauty from Agache, Morocco, his father a Madrileñan gypsy who made a living dealing in horses and cattle page 203

According to his biography in Flamenco world
Sobrino nieto del genial guitarrista Ramón Montoya

None of these can be considered "sources"...I used to write those little biographical entries myself...and even within the family there is no consensus.

The family has asked me to desist in this discussion for a variety of reasons, none of them sinister, all in the interests of accurate historical documentation.

For now, I think the best we can do is honor the memory of the great guitarist, Carlos Montoya.

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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 9:15:12

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)

The more I learn...the less i know!!

If the books and biographies say one thing about the flamenco families and the families themselves have no consensus, how do we know if anything is accurate?

I'll retract the statement that Ramon was Farrucos Grandfather...even though that's what I believed to be the general consensus...and continue to enjoy Carlos Montoyas recordings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 10:47:38

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

If the books and biographies say one thing about the flamenco families and the families themselves have no consensus, how do we know if anything is accurate?

In fact, we don't...it's common in flamenco, especially earlier generations when birth records were not scrupulously kept, children were often born at home or "on the road", and parents, sometimes illiterate and/or suspicious of government officials were in no hurry to do paperwork.

There are many examples... Before he died, guitarist Antonio Arenas, born in 1929 in Ceuta (Spanish city located in North Africa), told me he remembered when Camarón was born...not in San Fernando, but in Ceuta! He knew the mother well, as she had been working in Ceuta at the time. According to Arenas (this appears in his autobiography as well), Camarón's mother took her newborn boy back to the mainland because she feared he would be discriminated against as a "moro" if his birth certificate said he was born in Ceuta.

To this day we don't know exactly where Diego del Gastor was born...in Arriate, El Gastor or on the road somewhere near Ronda, regardless of what documents show. Another friend of mine in Jerez was born under a bridge...he knows the location of the bridge, but it's not information that can figure on a birth certificate, so well-meaning but overly concrete academics insist he was born in Jerez, which infuriates him.

According to family members, legendary singer Juaniquí "de Lebrija" was born in the fields of Las Cabezas de San Juan, but his mother, a migrant field-worker at the time, had to conceal the child's existence so as not to be sent home to Lebrija and lose her only means of survival.

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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 11:45:50

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Carlos became an American citizen and died age 89. I cant find out much more about his offspring though except he had another son Allan.

Carlos Montoya's son Alan lived in the apartment next door to mine in New York in the early seventies. As I recall he didn't talk much about his famous father. I remember asking him if he played flamenco guitar, and I seem to remember - this was a long time ago - that he said he played the guitar, but not flamenco.

Ramon

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 14:24:47

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Pimientito)

To make things more complex, I have a recording of Porrina and the guitarist is "Ramon Montoya" but it is clearly not THE Ramon...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 14:29:56

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I have a recording of Porrina and the guitarist is "Ramon Montoya" but it is clearly not THE Ramon...

This is another oddity I came upon years ago when on a forum someone excitedly posted having detected "Ramón Montoya" playing the famous Marote strum (triplet) which in theory was not created until the 1960s (Ramón died in 1949). But after a little research I found out there was a nephew or some such also called Ramón Montoya. The recording was accompaniment for the singer Angelillo.

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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 14:37:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)

Here is another version of the same clip of Ramon, a few seconds more playing of solea we hear in the beginning, and no annoying movie title on the video. I would love to scan the entire movie unbroken as even this scene fades in. I am really more excited about this clip than the other (with Carlos with only orchestra audio) as this is the real Ramon sound and playing, and that right hand is position is the same as any modern tocaor. Anybody know the guitar make? We know from literature and photos he had his beloved Santos, and there is the Esteso via Luis Maravilla, but the head on this looks more like Arias...so this would be a VERY old guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 14:57:17

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)

While we are on the subject of Ramón Montoya I have a cd titled "Arte Flamenco vol 4 El Cante de Antaño: Aurelio de Cádiz (Ramón Montoya, guitar)" presumably that is THE Ramón Montoya?

Anyone know when it was recorded?

I also have vol 5 of the same Arte Flamenco series "El Cante de Antaño: Juan Breva (Ramón Montoya, guitar)" the liner notes say the guitarist is "the great Ramón Montoya" so that must him?

it also says it was recorded "probably 1912/1913" The sound quality is pretty bad on this one, so I'm guessing the Aurelio one is later?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 15:06:11

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

a few seconds more playing of solea we hear in the beginning, and no annoying movie title on the video.

I hate to be cryptic, but I'm trying very hard to respect the family's wishes and tone down the excitement a bit.

However, I have it on the best authority that there does indeed exist a film of one or possibly more complete up-close solo guitar pieces played by Ramón dressed in that same period costume, no doubt filmed for the movie but eventually cut. The person who has this material says he/she had no idea it wasn't public domain and hopes to eventually make it available.

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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 15:16:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

quote:

a few seconds more playing of solea we hear in the beginning, and no annoying movie title on the video.

I hate to be cryptic, but I'm trying very hard to respect the family's wishes and tone down the excitement a bit.

However, I have it on the best authority that there does indeed exist a film of one or possibly more complete up-close solo guitar pieces played by Ramón dressed in that same period costume, no doubt filmed for the movie but eventually cut. The person who has this material says he/she had no idea it wasn't public domain and hopes to eventually make it available.

Cool, keep us informed.

About Aurelio, could have been Montoya but for sure Juan Breva recorded with him. I could tell if I heard the recording.

Here is a revealing interview with Aurelio...wow, I thought Agujetas was bad.

http://www.flamencoexperience.com/blog/?p=121

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 16:00:37

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

I also have vol 5 of the same Arte Flamenco series "El Cante de Antaño: Juan Breva (Ramón Montoya, guitar)" […]

it also says it was recorded "probably 1912/1913"

In my experience the dates given on Spanish historical CDs are extremely suspect. I have one in the series Raíces del flamenco that says “Juan Breva — toda su obra completa”, and the dates given are 1900–1910

The contents are:

Guajiras
Verdiales
Fandangos
Soleares (2)
Malagueñas
Malagueñas-Fandanguillo
Soleares
Malagueña
Petenera

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 16:18:24

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

About Aurelio, could have been Montoya but for sure Juan Breva recorded with him. I could tell if I heard the recording.

the playing on both discs sounds to my ear like the Montoya stuff I have on his solo recordings.
Unless there was another guitarist with the same name around at the same time playing his falsetas then it must be him.

But I don't even have a vague estimate of when the Aurelio disc was recorded:

this is the track list;

El agua no la aminoro-dos cositas tiene Cádiz (Alegrías)
No me habías de conocer (Malagueña)
Mis penas ando buscando (Malagueña del Mellizo)
De pura bayeta tan sólo por tu querer (Soleares)
Porque saber que te quiero (Fandangos)
Como caballo sin freno (Fandango por Soleá)
Quisiera hablar con Dios (Bulerías gitanas)
A mi me han dicho que la venganza... (Malagueña del Mellizo)
Que la ausencia causa olvido (Soleares)
Ahora si que te llamo (Siguiriya)
Si Dios me llama-yo le pido a Dios rogando (Soleares)
Que tenga rejas de bronce (Tango de Cádiz)

here the Juan Breva disc:

and track list:

1. Soleares
2. Soleares
3. Verdiales
4. Malaguena
5. Guajira
6. Siguiriya
7. Soleares
8. Verdiales
9. Malaguena
10. Taranta
11. Soleares
12. Petenera

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 18:05:53

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to mark indigo)

Well, well. So it looks as if my obra completa isn’t: you have three tracks I haven’t:

Siguiriya
Soleares
Taranta

and I have two you haven’t:

Fandangos
Malagueñas-Fandanguillo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 20:46:17

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Here is a revealing interview with Aurelio...wow, I thought Agujetas was bad.

What a fabulous interview. Aurelio has always been my favorite cantaor. Thanks for that. It's interesting - in "The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay" Aurelio comes off as sort of a benign grandfatherly type. Not here! I couldn't stop laughing in some places. And you thought that some of the exchanges on this foro were contentious?

One very interesting comment made by Aurelio was when he named his "four greatest (contemporary) guitarists" and named three fairly primitive style guitarists (although Melchor was more elaborate than someone like Paco Aguilera), and included Sabicas, whose style was completely different from the other three. I think that was an acknowledgement that besides being a great soloist, Sabicas was also a fabulous accompanist.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 20:54:40

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Ricardo)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 23:49:56

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

To make things more complex, I have a recording of Porrina and the guitarist is "Ramon Montoya" but it is clearly not THE Ramon...

Could it have been the Carlos? Chanced upon this today:

"One of the first singers I ever heard on records in the fifties was the very famous Porrina de Badajoz, an exceptional Gypsy artist from that Extremaduran city. (On at least one American LP, he was accompanied quite well by the immensely famous Carlos Montoya.)"
When Flamenco Is Not Andalusian – Singer El Lebrijano on Camarón — translated with comments by Brook Zern

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2014 1:27:31

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to mark indigo)

Aurelio de Cadiz: Primeras y Unicas Grabaciones Realizadas en Disco de Pizarra 78 RPM. 1928 (or 1929). Parasela CD--CDP3/656. Ramon Montoya.

There are 20 selections on the CD. There is no indication on the CD as to when it was released. Aurelio is heard often, "Viva Ramon, Viva Ramon"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2014 14:18:20

manicfingers

Posts: 47
Joined: Nov. 19 2011

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Ricardo)

That interview is comical. The photo used for this vid just matches his tone of voice perfectly...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2014 17:04:25

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to runner)

quote:

There is no indication on the CD as to when it was released. Aurelio is heard often, "Viva Ramon, Viva Ramon"

That would have to be the elder Ramón Montoya who lived until 1949. The younger one, not Carlos, but the nephew (or great-nephew, can't remember which) named Ramón Montoya hadn't been born yet in 1928/29.

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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2014 19:43:46

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)

Zata, I wasn't clear enough. The original recordings were cut in 1928-29, with Ramon Sr., but there is no date given for the release of the CD.

Aurelio is one of my very favorite cantaors. And he got better and better with age.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2014 0:01:20

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to runner)

quote:

Zata, I wasn't clear enough. The original recordings were cut in 1928-29, with Ramon Sr., but there is no date given for the release of the CD.

You said the jaleo was "Viva Ramón" as if you wanted to establish the identity of the guitarist, so I assumed you weren't sure which Ramón it was.

_____________________________

Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2014 0:18:13

devilhand

Posts: 1598
Joined: Oct. 15 2019

RE: RAMÓN MONTOYA & CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to zata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

quote:

I have a recording of Porrina and the guitarist is "Ramon Montoya" but it is clearly not THE Ramon...

This is another oddity I came upon years ago when on a forum someone excitedly posted having detected "Ramón Montoya" playing the famous Marote strum (triplet) which in theory was not created until the 1960s (Ramón died in 1949). But after a little research I found out there was a nephew or some such also called Ramón Montoya. The recording was accompaniment for the singer Angelillo.

Maybe it's Ramon Montoya Montoya (1934-2006) - another nephew of THE Ramon Montoya (1880-1949).
He looks very much like the great Ramon Montoya. The question is how he's related to Carlos Montoya.

It's difficult to find a video of him. Maybe this is the only one. At 1:14:30 Ramon Montoya Montoya accompanies Rocio Jurado. His toque sounds awesome. He switches also nicely to Verdiales at 1:17:35.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2022 10:57:03