That throaty gnarly VA growl

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1] 2 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

That throaty gnarly VA growl

Judging from the VA videos with different guitars, Iam guessing that, although they are based off his Reyes, there must be something on his technique that brings out that midrange-y throaty sound we all love.

Ive found that by pushing the strings towards the top gets me near that sound, specially with thumb. Also when playing chords with ima (strings 4, 5, 6), I think that pulling the strings straight away from the soundboard (perpendicular to the plane of the strings) gives a similar VA kind of sound.

Any ideas on how to do it?

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2014 18:26:20

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I think that makes sense.....
The only technique I tend to get compliments on regularly is my pulgar tone. I think it's because my thumb curls up naturally so I end up pushing the string into the soundboard rather then pulling it down towards the floor like many people.
On the other hand it makes alzapua tough for me............

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2014 18:46:59

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Leñador)

Yeah, thats exactly what I meant about the pulgar. I used to always play every pulgar thing with a straight finger and now when I conciously curl it outwards making a 45 degree angle, I notice that growl coming out.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2014 19:02:32

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Leñador)

speaking of curled thumbs ,,,
that thing is almost like a fishhook

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2014 19:12:23

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

My thumb looks just like that!

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2014 20:06:07

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Leñador)

That ain't a sexy looking thumb Lenny

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2014 20:35:49

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Maybe not but it sure gets the job done! lol

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2014 20:51:33

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Tomatito's thumb

His son, Jose Jr. More extreme yet.

It seems to push down with a rest stroke at right angles to the table which seems to be the prefered method.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2014 21:48:03

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to aeolus)

For a long time I thought they both got that sound because of the Reyes. Then I started to pay attention and I still think there must be something on those guitars that bring out that kind of sound but only to a certain degree.

The same goes for Tomatito's choked/"krak" rasgueo. I believe he fires his fingers towards the soundboard when he wants that sound.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2014 21:54:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Give examples and perhaps we can talk about specifics. I know that playing 5th intervals with a low action makes a nice growl on any guitar. I think you refer to the midrange and buzzy tone of his guitar, or perhaps when he bends the string aggressively, but not sure without specific example.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2014 0:10:08

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Ricardo)

I'll post examples when I get to a computer. Anyways, its the tone I described and can be found on any of his songs, more evident when he drive the guitar harder.

I also came to the conclusion that you can't get even near that sound with high action guitars. 2 to 2,5mm seems to be the spot. Maybe a slight buzzing is necessary to achieve it.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2014 0:40:03

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I think I know what you mean, that sort of vocal "ah" nasal tone that gets more pronounced when the guitar is pushed. I've heard this in a few different builders guitars. I personally really enjoy the tone.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2014 12:29:40

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to tri7/5)

Yes, now tell me how it happens :D

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2014 12:31:47

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

Yes, now tell me how it happens :D

Hopefully Aaron Green might chime in here and be willing expand upon this some. His blancas have a great earthy mid-range with that vocal tone. I'm sure as with anything it's part builder and part player at the same time but it doesn't hurt when your guitar is already voiced in this timbre.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2014 12:36:50

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

starting at 38 seconds. That's the sound.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2014 10:53:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

starting at 38 seconds. That's the sound.

Then maybe all he is after is that sound of playing and bending strings up high on the basses? Mainly the D string. Antonio Rey starting copying that sound pretty nicely. I think most flamenco guitars can make that sound if you try, it's in the fingers.

Check 15 seconds...pretty similar? I will say brand new bass strings help.
http://youtu.be/ygOCHEtTNQ0

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2014 13:52:47

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

No, its not the bends or any other kind of his usual left hand articulations. Of course the mentioned tone will appear during those articulations (and it slightly does on the youtube vid) but it can be better heard on chords and single note thumb lines.

Sounds almost like a classical guitar's midrange being pushed.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2014 15:36:08

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I used to copy that sound in my VA fanboy phase (I just removed my Vicente autograph from my guitar, 3 weeks ago haha) not as good as antonio rey for sure, but it was noticeable that my playing were very much influenced by vicente. I've never "learned" it, it just appeared naturally after x hours of listening an playing his compositions.
However his music doesn't move me that much anymore, it's like I have a different pair of ears now. My babylove is gone, I guess.
olé

Edit:
Rui I love your signature.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2014 16:11:46

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to athrane77)

Ju lobe it, doesn't they?

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2014 18:16:27

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

No, its not the bends or any other kind of his usual left hand articulations. Of course the mentioned tone will appear during those articulations (and it slightly does on the youtube vid) but it can be better heard on chords and single note thumb lines.

Sounds almost like a classical guitar's midrange being pushed.

If the example above isn't what you're talking about, can you provide one which is representative?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2014 8:35:56

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

My estimation on:

Technique

Years ago someone well informed pointed out to me how the the swing of a string will peak on the opposite axis. Hence: Parallel to the top when hit perpendicular, and vice versa: Perpendicular when hit in direction parallel to the top.

I found that bit sounding implausible, but when tried out it seemed to actually be true.

So, provided that most of the growl is coming from strings oscillating against fret wire, hitting the string parallel to the top should yield most. It appears to match my experience as well.

Build

"Throaty" and "gnarly" are characteristics that I associate especially with three brands. Among estudios that would be Hernandez ( of which I had a very playable and quite flamenco sounding cheapo), of concert level two awfully expensive makes and then Andy´s.
His guitars to me sound flamenco growling as it gets.
He has clips with many of his axes on YT. Check them out with closed eyes, auditioning through passable gear and see if there won´t be some Southern Spanish landscape showing up before the inner eye.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2014 13:33:44

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

"throaty" and "gnarly" is a good way to describe good traditional cypress flamenco guitar(palosanto/rosewood has much less of that). It's a sound that reminds me in some way a slightly overdriven electric guitar. I think some guitars definately have more "growl" to them, then we come to the question of manuel reyes guitar, I've tried only one from 76 and it definately was what you would describe "throaty and gnarly" in sound, so I would say that a safe comment from me would be that it's 50% the guitar of vicente(a reyes) and 50% of his technique.Maybe you should listen to songs he plays with other guitars and see the difference in sound? I think he used a palosanto guitar in his latest album.
Find a reyes or any other very traditional flamenco guitar and see if it makes your playing sound more throaty and gnarly, then you would know for sure if it's the guitar or technique. So in my experience the guitar has significant difference, just like when you compare "growl" of a rosewood and cypress guitar, there's a difference in amount of "throaty and gnarly growl" in cypress guitars.

The growl comes especially out when playing so called power chords, (5th interval "chords") just like Ricardo described. It's a good "growl" test, flicking A or E power chord with the index or middle finger powerfully.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2014 16:08:24

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Then maybe all he is after is that sound of playing and bending strings up high on the basses?

Yeah Ricardo, that's exactly what i meant.

If you're not hearing what i'm talking about, then, hmmm, wow...

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2014 22:01:04

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Yeah Ricardo, that's exactly what i meant.

If you're not hearing what i'm talking about, then, hmmm, wow...

Not trying to be a dick but I clarified that although that tone appears on those bends, that ain't the thing. Iam talking about mostly chords.

I was listening to "Canto" with El Pele and there's lots of that sound in there, even on chords that aren't pushed hard.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2014 22:09:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Where?

Y'all seem to think you mean the same thing,
An example here yes that's it but no not what I mean
Etc ... Clear as mud

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2014 23:43:22

mellowmel

Posts: 85
Joined: Aug. 31 2006

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Yes, some clips would be great.

This is not a blanca, for example, but has all the snarl & growl you will ever need. Although not my style (I prefer cleaner unless pushed) it's cool once in a while.

http://youtu.be/YmbEr3rmdAU

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2014 0:50:28

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I might post some audio excerpts on sunday. Didn´t want to put up lots of videos and "@50sec @1:23sec" etc etc.

Sorry for not posting that immediately but that's the reason I didn´t go the youtube way.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2014 2:23:54

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Years ago someone well informed pointed out to me how the the swing of a string will peak on the opposite axis. Hence: Parallel to the top when hit perpendicular, and vice versa: Perpendicular when hit in direction parallel to the top.

I found that bit sounding implausible, but when tried out it seemed to actually be true.

Ruphus

I've got my Aria travel guitar to hand as I'm reading this and have just done an experiment. Pulling the string up and letting go produces very little lateral string movement (parallel to soundboard), and pulling to the side produces a lot. Which is what O-level physics tells us - so my little experiment was really unnecessary. Lesson of the day: don't always believe what people say!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2014 12:40:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

I might post some audio excerpts on sunday. Didn´t want to put up lots of videos and "@50sec @1:23sec" etc etc.

Sorry for not posting that immediately but that's the reason I didn´t go the youtube way.

I think I should have said, to your initial post, "yes I know how he gets that sound." and just leave it at that. Or "ill tell you how on monday".

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2014 13:45:00

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: That throaty gnarly VA growl (in reply to Ricardo)

Iam done with this topic.

_____________________________

"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2014 16:01:32

Page: [1] 2 > >>

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1] 2 > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

7.794189E-02 secs.