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Flamenco Tree
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gmburns
Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
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 RE: Flamenco Tree (in reply to runner)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
I don't think there is ever a danger of learning too much about a subject; about it becoming an academic exercise (and is that bad?). I've found that just about every subject, art form, science, philosophy, "recreational activity", whatever, is helped in some way (often in a surprising way) to be more fully understand and more fully enjoyed, if one finds out a whole lot about it. I'm pretty sure our friend Sr. Burns will get into flamenco just about as deeply as he chooses to.
I neither play, nor dance, nor sing. But I've loved flamenco (in my own way) for about 50 years now.
This ^^. No need for a tree, but it is interesting. It does help to explain some things that I'm reading, or at least give a clearer picture.
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Greg Mason Burns - Artist
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Date Mar. 12 2014 23:27:10
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Flamenco Tree (in reply to runner)
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quote:
I don't think there is ever a danger of learning too much about a subject; about it becoming an academic exercise (and is that bad?). I've found that just about every subject, art form, science, philosophy, "recreational activity", whatever, is helped in some way (often in a surprising way) to be more fully understand and more fully enjoyed, if one finds out a whole lot about it.
I agree with what you say here in general, but we are talking specifically about flamenco, and I was talking about the balance between intellectual knowledge and practical experience (I was actually referring to what Antonio Mairena about good flamenco requiring three things: knowledge, technique and feeling).
I think the knowledge acquired needs some sort of experience to make it meaningful.
I've read quite a lot about the Moorish history of Spain, which is very interesting, and gives some cultural and historical background, but doesn't actually help that much in accompanying dance classes.
I've read a lot about various schemes of classification and categorization of cantes, but while a certain amount of that helped me in the beginning to start to distinguish different palos, there comes a point where ear is more important for accompanying cante.
I see it all the time with dance students buying cd's of flamenco indian fusion exploring the the roots of the Gypsies' migrations, or trying to read academic treatises on counting in order to "understand" compás, but they don't know where the letra starts.... 
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Date Mar. 13 2014 9:59:37
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gmburns
Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
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RE: Flamenco Tree (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
I don't think there is ever a danger of learning too much about a subject; about it becoming an academic exercise (and is that bad?). I've found that just about every subject, art form, science, philosophy, "recreational activity", whatever, is helped in some way (often in a surprising way) to be more fully understand and more fully enjoyed, if one finds out a whole lot about it.
I agree with what you say here in general, but we are talking specifically about flamenco, and I was talking about the balance between intellectual knowledge and practical experience (I was actually referring to what Antonio Mairena about good flamenco requiring three things: knowledge, technique and feeling).
I think the knowledge acquired needs some sort of experience to make it meaningful.
I've read quite a lot about the Moorish history of Spain, which is very interesting, and gives some cultural and historical background, but doesn't actually help that much in accompanying dance classes.
I've read a lot about various schemes of classification and categorization of cantes, but while a certain amount of that helped me in the beginning to start to distinguish different palos, there comes a point where ear is more important for accompanying cante.
I see it all the time with dance students buying cd's of flamenco indian fusion exploring the the roots of the Gypsies' migrations, or trying to read academic treatises on counting in order to "understand" compás, but they don't know where the letra starts....
I agree with what you're saying. I'm not interested in studying to learn how to play or dance. I may dance later, but I'm not interested in studying for that purpose. I'm much more interested in the culture side of things.
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Greg Mason Burns - Artist
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Date Mar. 13 2014 12:23:17
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gmburns
Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
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RE: Flamenco Tree (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
I'm much more interested in the culture side of things.
yes I understand that, I think the cultural aspect is very important.
It's easy to assume that all a student has to do is play the notes or dance the steps, but without cultural context so much of the meaning is lost, and so often the result looks or sounds either mechanical or sloppy.
In some ways this is the hardest thing to learn, especially outside of Spain... I'm lucky to have a dancer/teacher who I play for who is a fountain of this kind of experiential cultural knowledge.
She has amazing afición for cante and guitarra, and of course baile, and although she can barely count compás or categorise cantes, she can sing the letras and falsetas that she wants to hear!
She has really opened my eyes and ears to how much more I have to learn, but not really in an academic or intellectual way.
I wonder how you balance the intellectual learning with experience?
I think they go hand-in-hand to be honest. One needs to study and participate in a meaningful way on both sides. As you said, one can learn the notes but it would sound mechanical. But it's the same as if someone simply landed in Cadiz and tried to play based on his or her surroundings. I'm sure something would come out of it, but there would be no structure. Even a painting that has a structure-less appearance to it is structured simply because the artist probably intended to create in this methodical manner. If not, then it's simply luck, which certainly plays a legitimate part, too.
Right now, what I'm trying to do is get a sense of why alegrias, for example, developed the way it did next to bulerias. Who made these differences? Why? What was their position / disposition in life when they began to prefer tientos. Did they do because they wanted to sing something different, or was there an environmental change? Can that environment be painted in such a way as to show where this person came from?
I can't see how I can answer these questions without trying to reach both ends of the stick.
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Greg Mason Burns - Artist
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Date Mar. 13 2014 15:34:03
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also it might make categorization simpler and easier 
