Grief

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Grief

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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

Grief

The Lord Buddha said suffering arises from attachment.

In the West we don’t pay much attention to this. When we fall in love, we don’t find in the contract that we are signing up for grief when our lover dies, or that our lover will grieve if we go first, or that our heart will break if the relationship breaks up. It’s not even in the fine print. When our hero dies or disappoints us, we grieve. It’s not what we were looking for. But it happens all the same.

In one big company I worked for, you didn’t get a management job unless you specifically asked for it. There is a certain amount of crap involved in any management job. Among 250 people, conflict is sure to arise, particularly if more than half the people are male engineers in their 30s and 40s.

More than once I had to remove someone from a critical position they couldn’t handle. Leaving them there would have caused the whole organization to fail catastrophically in its mission. In that company, it inevitably resulted in lower pay and loss of status.

Sitting in my office, feeling sorry for myself, I muttered ironically, “Why me?” Then I answered myself, “Fool, you asked for this.”

When we grieve, it is because we have invested ourselves in the relationship.

The Buddha counseled detachment. Don’t let yourself become involved in what he called the world of illusion. That is the path to escape from suffering. That’s the Way to nirvana.

I consciously choose to ignore his advice. I think this life is the only one I’m going to get on this earth. I choose to participate. I choose to pay the price. It’s worth it to me.

And by now I know what I’m signing up for.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2014 20:16:06

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Grief (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

I´m with you on that!

It is also why I deslike taoism. To me a spineless and finally unfeeling swimming with the current.

Men is there for an exciting living, able to receive passionate emotions and to sense them for others. Able to be solidary and face resistance.

- Only that a relaxing break from time to time ain´t bad either.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2014 0:01:55

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Grief (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

I´m with you on that!

It is also why I deslike taoism. To me a spineless and finally unfeeling swimming with the current.

Men is there for an exciting living, able to receive passionate emotions and to sense them for others. Able to be solidary and face resistance.

- Only that a relaxing break from time to time ain´t bad either.

Ruphus

I'm sort of with you guys. And in an ideal world would agree 100%. But there is so much crap around these days that a "couldn't give a s..t" attitude could be a useful filter to protect yourself mentally from forces beyond your control.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2014 5:32:25

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Grief (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Being troubled is the only way for change.
Past decades in Germany it was annoying to see how mainstream was seeking distraction from not noticing in the first place. ( With super spare time venues been introduced as commercial reply to hosts looking for a break from not thinking.)

If things hurt, chances are for people to make them a topic.
Whereas if ignored devastating will be left resuming.
-

See the unspeakable burnings in the thick realm of Indonesia for instance?
They will be occuring just same ways next year again ( apart of the burning underground that will be going still anyway), because of the idiot principle of `what be not considered, neither be in existance ´.

- Besides to hell with the EU that orders all the palm oil crap that is major in killing the last remains of primare forests!
You think it is the friendly center of the worlds democracy, but in reality it is a reckless profiteering mafia that has its threads in all devastation across the globe.
Unfortunately.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2014 9:41:35

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

The Lord Buddha said suffering arises from attachment.

RNJ

The meaning of this statement may be greatly enriched by some consideration of the word attachment.

If one were to lose a loved one then that would be one attachment for ever severed. So often people rail against this injustice. But to what avail ?

The relationship with the deceased has changed and this needs to be recognised and accepted. So the attachment which needs to be severed is one to the past. The 'injustice' of separation may be accepted. The appropriateness of the idea of injustice may be examined.

With this acceptance the chosen or instinctive love which remains in one's memory may be recalled and enjoyed with perhaps a little melancholy or nostalgia. And hopefully without the resentment and anger which soils memory.

There is no more powerful tool in attacking any idea than deliberately shallow reading. Unfortunately people are apt to define their target audience by complicity in this.

I personally find great parallels between the christian promise of a devine afterlife and 'nirvana'. They both sweeten the acceptance of social inequality and promote passivity. And although when viewed from this perspective they are the reprehensible tools of a ruling elite I would seek to examine the philosophy of those belief systems from more than this single perspective. I would seek to dissolve my attachment to any single shallow view.

There used to be a phrase For God King and Country. A modern interpretation may permit the individual as king money as god and corporation as country. So by all means go forth For Money Self and Corporation.

For sure there be more to the life of the mind of anyone who has embraced this slogan than would seem apparent.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2014 15:26:48

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Grief (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Of course my view of Buddhism is shallow. I have never spent time in a monastery in concentrated and extended practice. My shallow understanding comes from reading, conversation with American Buddhists, and conversation with well educated monks in Thailand, Cambodia and Laos.

I intended no attack. Buddhism is okay with me.

I meant to contrast my objective to that of the Buddhists I have met. I remain agnostic about the transmigration of souls. I accept the Buddhist insight that participation in the so-called "world of illusion" leads inevitably to pain and suffering. But to me "Maya" is simply the world of experience--reality. I choose to participate, and to accept the consequences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

There used to be a phrase For God King and Country. A modern interpretation may permit the individual as king money as god and corporation as country. So by all means go forth For Money Self and Corporation.

For sure there be more to the life of the mind of anyone who has embraced this slogan than would seem apparent.

D.

Who are these selfish corporate patriots you attack?

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2014 21:00:34

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Who are these selfish corporate patriots you attack?

RNJB

I thought I was attacking the urge to use shallow word play as an excuse for failing to seek understand the choices and beliefs of others.

It felt odd to demolish this stalking horses so soon though......

And I enjoyed your post, in particular it's departure from your customary narrative form. And if it was prompted by grief then I sought to offer empathy.

And if you found harmony in accepting your choices and found everything to be as it should be then perhaps you have more understanding of and sympathy with the intention of the Buddha than you thought.

I myself am no Buddhist.
D.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2014 21:13:57

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 5 2014 22:15:53

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2014 21:46:16

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Grief (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Looking back, I must say I am grateful for having majored in geological sciences, and also having had a lifelong interest in astronomy. I was thus more than usually receptive to the uniquely relevant poetry of Robinson Jeffers, and also to the 2000-year-old serenity that radiates from Titus Lucretius Carus' On the Nature of Things, his long poem outlining the philosophy of his mentor, Epicurus.

The geological/astronomical background make clear to me the relative insignificance of our perceived central place in the order of things, and of the precariousness of our status; it also hints strongly at an unflattering parallel between the growth and behavior of human populations and metastatic disease. Jeffers and Lucretius/Epicurus offer somewhat parallel but not coincident ways of absorbing these perhaps unpleasant truths, that others have found useful--Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, professed that, if he wasn't a Christian (and he definitely wasn't your standard Christian), he would be a follower of Epicurus.

We can, should, and do grieve for those near and dear to us, and part of us (me, anyway) grieves over the vileness of human behavior, toward each other and toward our biosphere, but I myself do not allow my own life and mental equilibrium to be warped such that I can no longer be happy. The key is to find the proper balance.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2014 23:58:05

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I personally find great parallels between the christian promise of a devine afterlife and 'nirvana'.

one major difference, as I understand it, between the Christian promise of a divine afterlife and the Buddhist concept of Nirvana is that Nirvana, being the extinguishing of all attachment, is available in this life. And not only that, but attaining Nirvana means the end of the cycle of rebirth, thus effectively ending any life after this one. But I'm not actually a Buddhist either, so that is probably a too shallow reading.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 10:56:59

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to mark indigo)

For whatever reason I seem to be more focused on similarities than differences whenever I compare any two supposedly antagonistic fields.

But just because I personally find this more interesting than choosing sides doesn't mean that others shouldn't continue to enjoy the comfort of more fixed allegiances.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 11:14:48

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

For whatever reason I seem to be more focused on similarities than differences whenever I compare any two supposedly antagonistic fields.

But just because I personally find this more interesting than choosing sides doesn't mean that others shouldn't continue to enjoy the comfort of more fixed allegiances.

just pointing out what Nirvana means in a Buddhist context. Nothing to do with "antagonistic fields", "choosing sides" or "fixed allegiances".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 12:52:23

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

just pointing out what Nirvana means in a Buddhist context

As you understand it, as it must be understood, or from the perspective of it's to departure from the christian concept of the afterlife ?

But no need to clarify, I will choose as I see fit in line with my own estimation, which is,mercifully , prone to change. As indeed are all concepts.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 13:08:30

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Grief (in reply to runner)

Runner, I found some of Epictetus' sayings to be similar to my conception of Buddhism. (not having read Epicurus)

"Philosophy, Epictetus taught, is a way of life and not just a theoretical discipline. To Epictetus, all external events are determined by fate, and are thus beyond our control; we should accept whatever happens calmly and dispassionately. However, individuals are responsible for their own actions, which they can examine and control through rigorous self-discipline.

Suffering occurs from trying to control what is uncontrollable, or from neglecting what is within our power. As part of the universal city that is the universe, it is our duty to care for all our fellow men. Those who follow these precepts will achieve happiness and peace of mind."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epictetus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 13:11:48

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Suffering occurs from trying to control what is uncontrollable, or from neglecting what is within our power.

Nicely put Miguel.

Oddly enough this is also what causes RSI.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 13:23:34

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

quote:

just pointing out what Nirvana means in a Buddhist context

As you understand it, as it must be understood, or from the perspective of it's to departure from the christian concept of the afterlife ?

assuming the "to" in that sentence is a mistake....

I was merely trying to present what Buddhists believe, while acknowledging that it will necessarily be MY understanding of what Buddhists believe, and allowing for variation among different schools of Buddhist thought.

to reiterate, based on my understanding at present, the Buddhist meaning of Nirvana and the Christian concept of a divine afterlife seem to be very different beliefs and with very different implications.

If you know something about this that I don't then I would be glad to hear it.

If I am convinced of what you might tell me then my understanding will grow and my ideas I will change.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 13:26:16

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

quote:

If I am convinced of what you might tell me then my understanding will grow and my ideas I will change.

That is flattering Mark but I think perhaps your understanding will grow and your ideas will change only as a result of choosing to spend time exploring you feelings with relation to them and entirely for your own benefit. And it is not for me to decide when and under what circumsstances you might most profitably do this or even if it is desirable to do so.

And I feel little need to convince you of anything but would remind you that I at no point suggested that nirvana and heaven were synonyms.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 13:33:50

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

That is flattering Mark but I think perhaps your understanding will grow and your ideas will change only as a result of choosing to spend time exploring you feelings with relation to them and entirely for your own benefit.
And it is not for me to decide when and under what circumsstances you might most profitably do this or even if it is desirable to do so.

this is patronising and condescending in the extreme. you seem to be making a subject under discussion (in this case Buddhism) some sort of personal issue. is this a wind up?

quote:

would remind you that I at no point suggested that nirvana and heaven were synonyms.

really? you got pretty close

quote:

I personally find great parallels between the christian promise of a devine afterlife and 'nirvana'.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 13:49:10

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Grief (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

would remind you that I at no point suggested that nirvana and heaven were synonyms.

really? you got pretty close

quote:

I personally find great parallels between the christian promise of a devine afterlife and 'nirvana'.

I do not believe that I did get close.

I can however see why you would prefer to continue to believe so.

Anyway the blizzard has cleared and I am going to get some fresh air.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 13:57:41

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Grief (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Epictetus' sayings

Suffering occurs from trying to control what is uncontrollable, or from neglecting what is within our power.

Even though only valid to a certain extend, within such, a really beautiful sentence.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 14:22:35

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Grief (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel, thanks for the Epictetus reference. Epictetus was clearly a Stoic, and, as such, took a rather sterner view of what our responsibilities and our pleasures ought to be than the Epicureans--stiff upper lip, and such. The Stoics took rather a dim view of the Epicureans, as did many other philosophical schools of the time, and one can see why, as the Epicureans preached a life of quiet enjoyment of mind and body, and not messing about in your neighbor's business. But their equal--maybe even more important--contribution was the then-crazy idea that the world could be understood by the human mind--could be figured out--without recourse to gods or the supernatural. In order to avoid the then as now dangerous charge of atheism, the Epicureans postulated that the gods exist, but live in a dream space outside our universe, and have no interest in or influence on the affairs of the actual, physical world. Lucretius' work, de Rerum Naturae--On the Nature of Things is fascinating reading, in that Lucretius has a sort of plausible explanation for just about everything, based, by our standards, on just inspired imagination, and much of it is nonsense. But one is impressed by the effort, and by the modernity of the idea, which we have to wait until Galileo for, that the world can be explained and understood.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2014 18:17:23

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Grief (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Time robs us of not only physical strength but emotional depth as well. Losses early are keenly felt but with the passage of time our emotional capacity diminishes. But in its place comes a calm acceptance of the inevitability of death. Something like the rising and setting of the sun. If a fallen hero is grieved best to rejoice in his/her accomplishments and record of a life lived fully and well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2014 22:21:42

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Grief (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Nirvana was a band from Seattle during the grunge rock days - Heaven is the name of a bar in a Talking Heads song from the album Fear of Music.

Epicurus was nothing compared to Mel Brooks, who if he had lived during the Roman Empire would have written Springtime for Cesar and it would have broken box office records at The Colluseum.

Humor, please. A good antidote to grief. If not a cure it gets you through a little bit of it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2014 23:13:35

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Grief (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

If a fallen hero is grieved best to rejoice in his/her accomplishments and record of a life lived fully and well.

That´s what his friends said at the funeral of my brother.
He was famous for having lived life to its fullest, so we calmed ourselves with how much he compressed into his short life.
And how he would had preferred it that way rather than with a long but less exciting lifetime.
Just saying.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2014 23:57:39