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How many beats is one compas of tangos?   You are logged in as Guest
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Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

How many beats is one compas of tangos? 
Just as it sounds, I thought if someone said one compas of tangos it was 4 beats. This dancer I'm working with says in the states they use 8 beats as one compas, in Spain it's 16 beats is one compas of tangos.......or maybe vice versa, either way, not at all how I thought of it..........What's the story here????

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2014 21:56:16
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
i think this is more like a 'phrasing ' thing ...
so the tango is in 4 .. so 4 beats one compas ...basic ..
but the length of falseta or phrasing that you play .. or dance, may be 4 of them long ...i.e. 16 beats or four bars ..
or anything that is even and divideable by 4 ..so I suppose they're all right ..depending on the tune ...
I think

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2014 22:11:12
 
Leñador

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Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
That's what I was kinda saying to her. I called it phrasing, sure there's 8, and 16 beat phrases but I wouldn't call it one compas, it's one phrase. She was adamant that it's called a compas. It was tough to argue 'cus she's been dancing for 10+ years and goes to Spain every year but it's not how she makes her living.......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2014 22:29:18
 
rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to El Kiko) 
I agree with Kiko. There are many ways of looking at it depending on who is teaching or who is performing. It always has to be multiples of 4 though. Check this dude out & his logic to think of it as in 8 beats.



Cheers!

PS: Don't argue with dancers or other flamencos. It never goes anywhere. Just do what will be agreeable with everyone (unless it violates your moral principles, in which case, you should call 3681012 which is the number to the flamenco police).

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2014 22:29:43
 
Andy Culpepper

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Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
I always think of it as 8 beats because that's how long it takes standard compas phrase to resolve. I've debated this with dancers though

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2014 22:43:54
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
1 complete cycle = 8 beats ! no more no less...
count it the way you like, no matters :4, 16, 32, it's not really important if you play in your bedroom but be aware of the 8 beats and it will save you a lot of troubles while you interact with others.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2014 22:46:43
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:

This dancer I'm working with says in the states they use 8 beats as one compas, in Spain it's 16 beats is one compas of tangos

I have met this from (Spanish) dance teacher counting what they call one compás as;

"uno (da-da dum dum) dos (da-da dum dum) tres (da-da dum dum) cuatro (da-da dum dum)

so that's 16 beats. No point in arguing with that, even if I prefer to think of a compás as 8 beats....

quote:

Don't argue with dancers or other flamencos. It never goes anywhere.
true!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2014 22:58:11
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
Yeah, I totally get the 8 beat compas cycle thing so that makes sense to me. I feel like when cante is involved it all goes out the window. They can hang on a note for 4 extra beats and really just do whatever they want so if your stuck thinking about everything in 8's your gunna be thrown off. I've heard the word I think "ruido"(dunno if I'm spelling it right) thrown around and I always translated it as a cycle but she said it's synonymous for compas, one ruido = one compas. Eventually I just said, "Fine, how many beats does this section last?" lol

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one to run into this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2014 23:02:41
 
Leñador

 

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[Deleted] 
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 19 2014 3:55:52
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 18 2014 23:29:39
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
Never trust a dancer

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 11:55:13
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
I knew a dancer who had been going to Spain every summer for thirty years, taught classes about town and got gigs.

She wanted to 'improvise'. It turned out she couldn't repeat a single phrase without dropping a beat.

But oh the philosophy, the talk of duende, the crazy stupid denial of the woman.

Listening to her dance 'Alegrias' was like standing outside a stall listening to a horse trying to put out a fire.



D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 12:18:43
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
LOL She's pretty good, I just never heard this before.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 13:26:47
 
guitarbuddha

 

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Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
Seriously though.

Basic compas is two bars/eight beats. Musical ideas last one or two compas in general. But they can be padded out by any number of demi-compas which can be two, four or six beats long.




D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 14:15:10
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
I THINK a cantaor can extend something by only 4 beats should they choose to.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 14:41:59
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
Have a count !! The answer is always in the music.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 14:52:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

Yeah, I totally get the 8 beat compas cycle thing so that makes sense to me. I feel like when cante is involved it all goes out the window. They can hang on a note for 4 extra beats and really just do whatever they want so if your stuck thinking about everything in 8's your gunna be thrown off. I've heard the word I think "ruido"(dunno if I'm spelling it right) thrown around and I always translated it as a cycle but she said it's synonymous for compas, one ruido = one compas. Eventually I just said, "Fine, how many beats does this section last?" lol

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one to run into this.


Stop getting all hung up about it and understand you are working on communication skill. THere might be different ways to call or describe the same thing, just as in learning a different language. If the dancer says one compas = 8 then you must believe her...unless YOU think YOU are the teacher here. Anyway about "a compas" vs "half compas".....

again, we cover this topic A LOT in the archives. Buleria vs solea por buleria vs solea similar issues you find in Rumba vs tangos vs tientos. A single compas the first group is defined by 12 counts. (or beats but I prefer that someone define a "beat" before using that term cuz it can mean different things). A half compas, therefore will be only 6 counts....long or short from a full single compas based on the musical phrase at hand. It stands to reason then the second group of palos has the single compas defined by 8 counts (again beats might be something else) and a half compas only 4.

In both cases the terms come in handy when communicating with dancers, not so much with singers. However, you find similar trends for both. A singer that works for dancers a lot will of course use the same terminology. ("una falseta, estribillo, y despues de un compas, la letra....etc). The up tempo forms gets away with lots of half compas units, the middle tempo forms tend to be more strict and square, and the slow forms more elastic. Half compases I find to be comparatively rare in the slower forms, though they do infact occur as we discussed numerous times. There are no rules about it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 15:03:52
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
I like rules!!! Lol

Alright, I'll chill out about it. After I understood were she was coming from I just went along with it. Bend like the willow don't snap like the bamboo. Far nuf fair nuf lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 16:18:51
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
well i agree with everything said ... especially mine , the only thing I never said is that , if you are working with dancers , they think like dancers and do the dancer stuff that they do and will agree with the other dancers ...great , just learn from it and learn the compas from the dancers point of view ...all good experience ,,,,

Then when your with a singer(s) they will have a slightly different take on it ....go with that and learn more from that point of view ....all great experience.

dont go against it just keep adding to your knowledge , just remember , your always learning .. cos your always wrong......sorry about that ...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 17:47:29
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to El Kiko) 
kiko the fact is that if you consider tangos as a 4 beat compas like you stated in your 1st post, then what you posted above is difficult to apply.
Coz your basement is a misconception. And it let room to argue vs the 8 count side if an argument pop up. imo it's not a question of POV.
As usual, Ricardo's post are very helpfull.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 18:01:36
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to mezzo) 
Then , Mezzo , i think that you didnt understand the first post ..
I said that 4 beats is the most basic compas .. or rythmn .. but that it will usually be of a more useful length ... 8 or 16 beats (2 or 4 bars ) and this will be often a phrase or compas .
but you have to first define what you mean by compas .. and this will possibly depend on if you are a singer, dancer or player ...
and that is where the debate comes in

So if you were doing palmas you may decide on 8 beats .. as then you would repeat ,, but if you were singing you may decide it 16 (beats)...
But at the lowest level it will most likely be a multiple of 4 ...

If I had to guess . myself i would probably say 8 ...(beats ..2 bars of 4 ) is one compas , and a normal phrase would be 2 of them long ...

unless i was a dancer.

for example

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 20:12:06
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
If we think of tangos as 8 beats, wouldn't bulerias be 24?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 20:18:38
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

If we think of tangos as 8 beats, wouldn't bulerias be 24?


12 beats of bulerias you can get from A to A through Bb C and Gm again. So a pretty small circle.

In tangos four beats will get you from point A to point A going through point A. This is not a small circle it is a point.

Oddly enough we seem to go round in circles so often precisely because points are seldom taken.


D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 20:29:41
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

wouldn't bulerias be 24

Apples and oranges

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 20:36:24
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
The reason Iam suggesting 24 is because of the remate compas.

12 full beats + ending on 10 = 24


I don't remember listening to bulerias that are constantly closing on 10 on every compas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 20:41:06
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

Then , Mezzo , i think that you didnt understand the first post ..

Yes and I hardly understand the last one too. You overcomplexify the matter.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 21:26:03
 
davidheis_24

Posts: 134
Joined: Feb. 4 2011
From: QLD AUS

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Leñador) 
4
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 21:52:09
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to mezzo) 
I think you overcomplexified that word ...whatever it means .. I will start using it ...
......
but I may have to undercomplexify it for some of the others


edit ....@davidheis_24 ....absolutely brilliant answer....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 22:08:42
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

The reason Iam suggesting 24 is because of the remate compas.

12 full beats + ending on 10 = 24


I don't remember listening to bulerias that are constantly closing on 10 on every compas.


Think of a chessboard. Smallest pattern is one black and one white tile. Like one of Bb and one of A,

Now make all the tiles white. What is the smallest pattern then ? None, there is no pattern.

With just black and white here are the six possible one dimensional patterns with equal parts black and white. 1100 1010 0101 0011 0110 1001. Thing get more complicated if you allow two dimensions and unequal amounts of tiles.

None of that changes the fact that the smallest possible pattern has two tiles. If people want to talk about one tile patterns then that is up to them. I like my definition of tangos compas above. And I commend the aural practice of applying it to the vid I posted following it.


D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 22:15:32
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
quote:

1100 1010 0101 0011 0110 1001.

and to think i was just accused of overcomplexifying things ............ ...still a good word though even though you have done it overcomplexicographically

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 22:19:51
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: How many beats is one compas of ... (in reply to El Kiko) 
How about underthinkifying ?

Got a nice Bushian ring.


D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 19 2014 22:23:10
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