RE: Picado and hand size.

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aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

You might just need to get over the initial frustration, which is why I suggested if you aren't used to it, starting with something simple.

What I needed was pressure to work on it which I have found in the up comng challenge. I shelled out $15 for a months access to this site. I also bought a TASCAM recorder. Whether this will all come together remains to be seen.

http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Flamenco_First_Pieces-Seguiriya/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2014 15:36:30

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

If a student cannot grasp anything more complex than (eg.) Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, then that is where they must start.

Anyone got the tab for me? hehe

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

a guy wrote a book called The inner game of tennis and I remember one example he gave of awaiting a serve and then inadvertently start thinking about what's for lunch and have the serve whiz past your ear.

Could be the most consize summery of my life so far. |OP

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2014 15:41:38

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

I started with notation and then tab and never got very good at learning by ear. Now in my dotage, I have worked on that and done a lot of solfege and vastly improved my ear.

It makes me wonder how the guys whose ear/guitar connection is incredibly strong deals with the many options that are available to them.

I am not claiming to be the best ear player but I find it really really useful to play simple tunes in open position and to harmonise them on the fly using the bare minimum of chords (usually I, IV, V). Start in E and work round the cycle (E A D G C F) to Bb.

Take each key as a short study and notice how it starts to get intuitive. It also gives also helps develop an intuitive sense of musical grammar (as opposed to Al Di style finger pattern combo amusical grammar) for improvising as it forces you to think.

Another thing is to force yourself to learn from instructional DVDs without looking at the booklet.

Reading is great too but so many flamenco editions have unhelpful time signatures and that can be very misleading.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2014 18:58:39

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

As I recall I really couldn't get his 4 note tremolos down

you couldn't do 4 note tremolo? or you couldn't get his tremolo falseta? if you're using this to start 4 note tremolo..... maybe try something more basic?

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 11:12:28

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I am not claiming to be the best ear player

me neither

quote:

Another thing is to force yourself to learn from instructional DVDs without looking at the booklet.

works for me....

quote:

Reading is great too but so many flamenco editions have unhelpful time signatures and that can be very misleading.

all flamenco transcriptions are wrong!

ok, I better explain what I mean by that, and I think this is a big and fundamental difference between flamenco and classical.
My understanding of classical music is that the composer writes the music and the musician interprets it.
But in flamenco (guitar music) the musician composes and plays the music on the instrument, and anyone who tries to write it down is making an interpretation.
There are many subtle rhythmic nuances that are either difficult or complex to write down.
This is just one reason why different transcriptions of the same performance vary.
Hence "all flamenco transcriptions are wrong" (ok, that's an exaggeration of what I actually mean).
I often use tablature as a guide for pitches and finger positions, but take the rhythmic values and memorize from the audio.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 11:21:37

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to mark indigo)

This is what wasn't working for me. The top line. But I had worked on it for 3 months and had it memorized so maybe I could have tried harder. And yeah, what I was playing wasn't what VA was playing on the CD. More of an approximation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 13:15:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

This is what wasn't working for me. The top line. But I had worked on it for 3 months and had it memorized so maybe I could have tried harder. And yeah, what I was playing wasn't what VA was playing on the CD. More of an approximation.

good lord that is written rhythmically so wrong it's not even funny.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 14:27:48

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Ricardo)

Aeolus that is a truly unfortunate transcription, no wonder you are struggling.

I can't imagine any professional engraver doing a job that bad (well not since the sixties anyway).

It's probably an accurate tab transcription by a non reading player transferred onto guitar pro by a non player and proof read by a keyboard player (the accidentals are suspiciously logical). This kind of thing really angers me.

For a genuine reader it is a bit like this. fo rag enu inere aderi tisa bitl iket his.

The tremolo should be in quintuplets (good mnemonic is A Bra-Ca Da-Bra(1+2+2) if you want to avoid a gallop.

If you are struggling with a transcription that you get online then I or Ricardo or numerous others will be glad to tell you if it is misleading, you shouldn't have to put up with this shoddy work.

I know some guys don't mind this but it is a bit like the sentence above, if you don't really read it isn't a problem as the tab is a visual aid for your aural memory. But when you can it is a serious nuisance.

The Paco Pena book is an example of a well notated Seguiriya. And it is very cleverly composed to spoon feed you, the learner, the compas.

Wishing you better luck.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 14:51:31

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

On a more encouraging note here is a link to a truly considered and accurate transcription and a real nice edition (which I own).

The transcriber is Akira Seta and I really admire his work. Logical guitaristic fingerings based on long term study of the performer. Meticulous approach to conveying as accurately as possible the players intention in the choice of rhythmic groupings. All bar lines in the correct place (very important for me that one). Proper left hand fingerings (not fretboard positions but actual fingerings).

Unfortunately for non readers he doesn't include tab. But I like that as it makes for a smoother read and less trees get chopped down (compare this with the all singing all dancing waste of paper that the new official transcriptions of this material are where there are thirty page turns per piece instead of four).

Transcribing the rhythmic palos is hard work but it is doable. The freetime ones are much more subjective and not just for the transcriber but for the originator on a given day/take.

http://www.finefretted.org/html/la_fabulosa_guitarra.html

D.

(P.S. I am not suggesting that you should buy this book as it seems you have, like most of us, a lifetime's study on your shelves already. I just want to applaude sterling work in the very difficult field of flamenco score production)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 15:01:21

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

Well it's some consolation to hear that I have some excuse for a fail on the VA piece. Thinking about it now I should have just edited it to a straight tremolo form as it was obvious the transcription wasn't authentic anyway. Clearly PdL is out of reach but the single line pieces of VA are doable and fun if I can find good transcriptions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2014 15:20:32

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

Well it's some consolation to hear that I have some excuse for a fail on the VA piece.

Which Vicente piece are you trying to learn?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2014 9:19:39

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to machopicasso)

quote:

Which Vicente piece are you trying to learn?

It was Morente from his album De Mi Corazón al Aire. Actually it was the tremolo section that stumped me as I had never played a 4 finger one before and there were some variations that made it more difficult. I haven't worked on it for a few years. I'll have to take another crack at it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2014 10:00:06

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Ricardo)

Its a tremolo section, so does it even matter how it's
written, right??

All you need are the notes.

Aeolus,
If i have time this week, i will make a slowed down video
of this section. I love that one.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2014 10:28:06

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

why it this foro when you write picado in title thread,always there are 4,5 ,6 pages of thread.??

Do the anglo saxon realise the picado is 1 or 2 % of flamenco .?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2014 10:50:26

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Aeolus,
If i have time this week, i will make a slowed down video
of this section. I love that one.

Thanks so much. It is beautiful isn't it: wonderfully lyrical.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2014 11:21:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to el carbonero)

quote:

ORIGINAL: el carbonero

why it this foro when you write picado in title thread,always there are 4,5 ,6 pages of thread.??

Do the anglo saxon realise the picado is 1 or 2 % of flamenco .?

WHat's the matter, you can't do fast picado? Hmmmmm?

Just kidding. Everyone knows the main topics always are Nails, strings, Picado, and Conde. Luckily the old favorites of "modern vs old school flamenco" and "juan martin is not spanish" topics have died out.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2014 13:48:32

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

WHat's the matter, you can't do fast picado? Hmmmmm?

Just kidding. Everyone knows the main topics always are Nails, strings, Picado, and Conde. Luckily the old favorites of "modern vs old school flamenco" and "juan martin is not spanish" topics have died out.

I dont know if juan martin is spanish , but his english accent seem suspect

Personnaly i do picado four notes in one tempo in alegria in one compas duration ,and it's enough for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2014 19:42:49

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

Thanks so much. It is beautiful isn't it: wonderfully lyrical.

Made a quick vid of it for you. Its in the Falseta Swat Shop.

TK

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2014 8:25:23

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Made a quick vid of it for you. Its in the Falseta Swat Shop.

TK

That's a big help. VA was going too fast for me to pick up what he was doing. Thanks again.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2014 9:53:50

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

It was Morente from his album De Mi Corazón al Aire. Actually it was the tremolo section that stumped me as I had never played a 4 finger one before and there were some variations that made it more difficult. I haven't worked on it for a few years. I'll have to take another crack at it.

You know Faucher has a transcription of this piece, right? I thought I'd mention it since originally you seemed to be working with a problematic transcription.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 10:36:14

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to machopicasso)

quote:

quote:

It was Morente from his album De Mi Corazón al Aire. Actually it was the tremolo section that stumped me as I had never played a 4 finger one before and there were some variations that made it more difficult. I haven't worked on it for a few years. I'll have to take another crack at it.

You know Faucher has a transcription of this piece, right? I thought I'd mention it since originally you seemed to be working with a problematic transcription.

I had never heard of Faucher but I see he has an extensive catalogue so I'll order Morente and see how it compares to the free tab.
Are his transcriptions in staff notation or just tab?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 12:52:33

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

It's been a couple of years since I ordered anything from Faucher, but the last time I checked, the individual transcriptions were tab only. They music books are both tab and staff notation.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 16:49:50

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

19 Euros is a bit steep for just tabs but I ordered it anyway. At least they don't charge for shipping. Some European publishers charge that much just for shipping.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 19:39:28

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

why do you need to pay? If what you need it's just to COPY. There's no need to paid man! just copy what's toodk is showing you! nada mas.

_____________________________

"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 0:36:31

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

why do you need to pay? If what you need it's just to COPY. There's no need to paid man! just copy what's toodk is showing you! nada mas.

I think(hope) he means for the other parts of the song.

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 4:37:47

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

19 Euros is a bit steep for just tabs but I ordered it anyway. At least they don't charge for shipping. Some European publishers charge that much just for shipping.

His transcriptions are typically tab-only. But they're excellent and are as good as anyone's. In the past, he's frequently worked from private videos of the guitarists he's transcribing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 9:03:34

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to machopicasso)

Free tabs are available on a number of web site and have been uploaded by anyone who has registered with the site. Some sites allow users to grade the transcriptions. Here is a brief profile of a guy that did sign his name on a Tomatito tab. Most don't

Personal

Username: Fadi Ashush
User title: Amateur Tabber
Real name: Fadi
Gender: Male
Birthday: June 13th 1979
Location: Syria
Country: Syria

{{ 1 tabs / 0 corrections }}

I forget where I got my Morente tabs and want to compare it with the one from Affedis

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 11:23:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

Free tabs are available on a number of web site and have been uploaded by anyone who has registered with the site. Some sites allow users to grade the transcriptions. Here is a brief profile of a guy that did sign his name on a Tomatito tab. Most don't

Personal

Username: Fadi Ashush
User title: Amateur Tabber
Real name: Fadi
Gender: Male
Birthday: June 13th 1979
Location: Syria
Country: Syria

{{ 1 tabs / 0 corrections }}

I forget where I got my Morente tabs and want to compare it with the one from Affedis

He didn't mean get FREE tabs he meant why can't you learn it just from what Toddk showed in the video....ie by ear or from watching. Point being is that is how flamenco's learn. But I am just pointing it out, we know you admit you can't or don't learn by ear and need the score.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 16:13:07

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

why do you need to pay? If what you need it's just to COPY. There's no need to paid man! just copy what's toodk is showing you! nada mas.

I assume this is what you are referring to. As I pointed out initially I wanted to compare a tab by an established company with a tab that is free. Anything wrong with that? There is no one within a 100 miles of me that I could access to learn through demonstration. With Affedis now indicating that thay have 500 tabs available at a not insignificant price of 19Euros shows there must be a lot of people who want to learn through tabs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 16:27:30

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

I forget where I got my Morente tabs and want to compare it with the one from Affedis

My bet is that it is will have been the source and someone with little understanding of notation crammed it into a tab editor program.

The Claude Worms version has notation I will send you a link.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 16:31:32