Need help with student

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beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

Need help with student

Have a guitar student, 12years boy,who's left handed. He came to the first class with a guitar stringed for a right handed, and held it like a right handed.
He never played anything so far, not a chord, nada.

What would You do? restring the guitar, and have it played like a LH, or leave it as it is, and learn like a RH, and that's gonna be easier for him?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 5:50:25

yourwhathurts69

Posts: 117
Joined: Sep. 16 2009

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

I'm left handed for most things, but when it comes to musical instruments, I'm completely right handed. If your student held it like a right hander, I'd say keep it that way. That might be what feels natural to him.

(As a side note, I think all right handers are backwards on the guitar, anyway. After all, if I were to swing a baseball bat or golf club as a left hander, the position of my hands are the same as when I play guitar "right handed." That's why I play sports left handed but play instruments "right handed.")

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 6:49:08

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

I am left handed and have not found it to be too much of a problem to play right handed.

There aren't so many left handed violins or pianos around and people seem to get on fine.

If a pupil comes with a left handed guitar then I let them get on with it.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 7:24:50

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

its kinda up to your student , get him to try it out different ways and decide later ..

I had a friend at school who was left handed and played the guitar ''upside down '' but that was more cos all the guitars were stringed that way .. although he did very well i noticed after a few years i see him playing with a restringed guitar for the lefthanders ...i suppose he made that change and decided it suited him ...

Also another friend of mine in Montilla is a really fantastic and sought after local flamenco player , he is lefthanded and has all his guitars strung for the left hand ..i saw his collection of handmade guitars at his place o nce and it ewas very fustrating that i couldnt play any of them ... damn ...

i think have a word with your student and give him options

some people do very well lefthanded with the guitar restrung.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 8:14:23

beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

thanks for the replies guys!
To tell the thruth I restrung the guitar on the spot, as I have heard that's not so great
to have children get used to let's say right handed activities, when (s)he' left handed...

But today I got to the point that I'll restring it back to the original right handed way.
This is what lead me to this:
I came to know that one of my close friend is a LH either, I just didn't recongnized it, since he's playing RH, and said, it's no problem at all.
If it's the same for him (pupil), as he's at the very start point, then it'll be easier to learn after watching others, save the energy to mirror everything, AND if he goes anywhere where there's a guitar lying around he's gonna be able to play it right away. Can try other player's guitar right away, or test guitars in shops etc...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 18:33:50

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

Why not try one month right handed and one month left handed? or at least a week of each. I would imagine it's the only way to know which one works better if he is undecided

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 23:06:22

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

I am left handed but play guitar right. I can shoot a rifle either way and I pitch a ball right handed. So it's not a ether or situation and the student alone knows what feels right for him. He may be partially ambidextrous as I am so it's a matter of investigation and letting him choose what feels right.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 23:18:54

El Burro Flamencuro

Posts: 118
Joined: Nov. 28 2012

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

I am left handed and i play a 'left handed' guitar. I think the best way to approach this is to have him pick up the guitar and see how he naturally holds it. But also, there is a little test that me and my professor found that might be even better than above.

Hold your hands out in front of you(with fingers extended straight out, but still relaxed; with your fingers touching each other), palms down(doesn't matter, just easier to see) and compare the difference in length between your "I" and "A" fingers on both hands(you can also use your "M" finger as a quick reference to see the difference between the "A" fingers). For tremolo, you want your "I" and "A" fingers to be closest to equal length as possible(On your strumming hand).

Taking a look at my hands and my professors' hands...we discovered that one hand's "I" and "A" were almost the same length and the other hand had a slightly longer "A" finger. I think this is the most common...but i have heard from my teacher that the Romeros "I" "A" and "M" fingers are all of very similar length on one hand.

possibly this is why some people struggle with getting a clean tremolo. But i would also assume that some people have altered their technique to accommodate for the difference. This is all just theory but use your own judgement and decide for yourself.

Let me know what you guys think, are your "I" and "A" fingers the same length and did you find tremolo somewhat easy to learn. vice versa for people who are using the other hand as your dominant.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 15 2014 3:42:07

beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

quote:

letting him choose what feels right.

Yes, I think so. But he couldn't tell, said it was the same for him.

Today's the lesson's day, and I made up my mind to reconvert the guitar back to the original right handed. It's gonna be much easier for him, and that's what some respected professor advised me to do either...

Thomas: I agree about Your theory on the fingerlenght. However I think it's only one factor. Proper practice is another, and I consider this to the ultimate one to determine playing. I hear kick-ass tremolos from guys with totally different hand, and fingershape, and that include size and finger lenght. So I'd not decide on that.
Moreover You can compense these differencies through the angle of Your wrist/palm, don't You?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2014 11:40:16

beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

Thanks everyone for the replies!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2014 13:01:43

Bliblablub

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

You can't just switch the strings and test a guitar the left or right way, simply because of saddle nut and bridge. There are right handed people that play left handed, left handed who play right handed, right handed who play right handed, and left handed who play left handed. Basically. Professors usually don't know that...
The rare occurence of left handed pianos or violins has more to do with conservatism in the classical music scene than anything else.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2014 14:59:27

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Need help with student (in reply to Bliblablub)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bliblablub

You can't just switch the strings and test a guitar the left or right way, simply because of saddle nut and bridge. There are right handed people that play left handed, left handed who play right handed, right handed who play right handed, and left handed who play left handed. Basically. Professors usually don't know that...
The rare occurence of left handed pianos or violins has more to do with conservatism in the classical music scene than anything else.

THen there is yngwie who played right handed and reversed the strings on a left handed strat cuz he wanted to mirror hendrix.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2014 15:38:22

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

I’m not aware of a systematic study; but according to the late Jack Duarte, such evidence as there is points to lefties doing better playing left-handed. Certainly counter-examples are hard to find, and with so many prominent lefties from McCartney & Hendrix on down, it’s hard to contradict.

However, I was at school with one Rich Walker, who was a leftie but played rightie; and he said he preferred having his best hand on the fingerboard.

On the other hand, a few decades ago I was asked to teach Bluegrass banjo to a leftie (that was in the days when I was playing with the Cardboard Mountain Boys). As you no doubt know, you can’t convert a 5-string banjo by just turning it over.

He stuck playing rightie for a few months, then said he couldn’t stand it any more, and he was going to carve his own leftie banjo-neck.

That was the last I heard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2014 16:20:44

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

Left-handed Kids used to routingly be forced by pedagogs to using their right hand.
Neurology later filed that such would cause mis-"wiring" in the brain and leave the individual with inner conflicts for the rest of their lives.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2014 9:24:42

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Need help with student (in reply to Ruphus)

I think that the social support structures make a great deal of difference to how physical demands effect psychology. I think that the supposed moral imperative of right handedness is more counterproductive than the fact of training the less active side, since this is famously a prophylactic against the dangers of senility and strokes.

Any way here is a little more about my experience as a leftie who plays rightie. I didn't start playing till I was seventeen and that was on borrowed guitars at friends houses. Then I got a piece of sh1t guitar soon after and played it every which way and there was no problem at all, I was equally rubbish with all of them. So I ended up choosing the cheapest and simplest option which was right handed. I hated the sound of the treble strings rattling in the too big holes in the nut.

Noone is entirely right or left handed. I write with my left but I throw deal cards with my right.

If you hand a baby a pen or crayon or any object they will grab it with the strong/preferred hand. If you were to take that object from them and force them to use the other hand then that would be unjust and pointless. It would in fact it seem like a betrayal.

But to tie their laces the child needs to learn to use two hands simultaneously. They do so without problem for there is no implied judgement just a simple fact, two hands are needed.

I remember being able to write well before I could tie my laces.

Guitar is like that, it needs both hands to work in unison and it doesn't really make much difference which is the strong one.

The finger length thing is nonsense. If someone is buying a guitar then let them get any one they want. Left handed right handed or (and this happens a lot) pink. If you have too much say then they will transfer resentment from you to the instrument.

But I would never force anyone to change from left handed to right or vice versa as this is the thing which causes 'inner conflict'. Or just simple resentment.

If they want to change midstream then that is fine. However it might just be a sign that they are the type of person who will always blame their instrument.

...Or that they have been bamboozled by bogus theorising.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2014 10:37:26

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

Hi David,

My last read on this is from ~ 20 years ago / could be obsolete.

Are you convinced that a genetical preference ( precondition of basically leaning to one certain side), neglected ( basic coordination trained to the other side) could not result in physcially based psychological difficulties?
Just curious.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2014 12:12:54

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Need help with student (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Hi David,

My last read on this is from ~ 20 years ago / could be obsolete.

Are you convinced that a genetical preference ( precondition of basically leaning to one certain side), neglected ( basic coordination trained to the other side) could not result in physcially based psychological difficulties?
Just curious.

Ruphus

I think the reported difficulties are the same as for any form of sustained bullying. Clumsiness, stuttering depression and the like.

It is hard to imagine a test situation for a truly decisive study which would be ethical. Amputation of on of two twins, forcing one left handed identical twin to to use the left and another the right and doing all this to hundreds. And it would also be pointless as the invasive nature of the experiment would be cause enough for the stress related problems listed above.

And all of this would be irrelevant to guitar which is by its very nature an ambidextrous instrument.

On the other hand I have known children get unhappy and give up because they got the good value guitar instead of the pink piece of sh1t.

I think it is best to advise them that it doesn't really matter so best to buy the best instrument that they can afford but then leave them in peace to make their own choices.

Anyway thats just my opinion. I am certainly glad that I wasn't forced to write right handed at school. That policy was to avoid smearing whilst using a fountain pen and all the rest of the arguments that excused it are twaddle. There is still a little smearing with ballpoints and even pencil. Does that mean that left handed children should learn to write mirror writing ?

Well Leonardo didn't seem to have lost any intellectual confidence through forcing himself to learn that skill... But then he had a choice and that is I think the crucial thing choice. Not in the modern sense of pointless variety but more that the final choice should be left to the student.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2014 12:40:41

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

I understand that as "yes".
-

Besides, pink guitars.
Neighbour´s son had an entry level dud which he exchanged against a complete peace of garbage guitar, because it was finished with sorts of mother-of-pearl laquer.
Which again is what I told him when he presented me the new instrument to check.
"You thought it cool looking, heh?"

Similar with my cousin´s teeny doughter.
We organized her a good classical.
But she actually would prefer some E-axe as it could be looking so much cooler when dangling between the knees.

Both contrasting a student of mine who actually came to learn what the heavy metal guys do, but now learns the classic basics on a nylon guitar without grumble. He would even be prepared to buy a classical if he could afford it.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2014 13:08:54

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Need help with student (in reply to Ruphus)

My favourite was a little girl who had a skull plectrum. Both sides were so deeply scalloped that it was impossible to use (it got stuck in the strings) I guess they were supposed to look like jutting ribs.

Every week the same bloody plectrum and never more than a few notes in time before it got stuck and the tone always awful.

Still she was living the dream.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2014 13:24:53

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

one advantage of a left handed person playing a "right handed" guitar is that they will be using their non-dominant hand for the "picking and strumming part" which means their dominant hand will not have nails. this can be a plus in other aspects of his or her life. one of the hassles of having nails on the dominant hand is they get in the way or are more prone to breakage because the right hand is doing things like using a socket wrench or what have you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2014 18:42:41

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Need help with student (in reply to beno)

Up to a year ago i would not have considered the option to play the guitar left handed unless someone already played it like that. Both hands are difficult to master and both have to be trained from scratch, so what's the difference? But when the Belgian player Myrddin was interviewed on dutch television he seemed to be pretty serious there was a hell of a difference to him. A scientists recently did a test on dutch television asking people to sing 1 melody while tapping an unrelated rhythm with 1 of their hands. According to him people generally had less problem tapping the rhythm with their right hand dude to the fact the left half of the brain (as you now that is the half that operates the right hand) generally has better settings to deal with rhythm as the right half of the brain (they both have their own fields of specialization). I did indeed notice a big difference with my own attempt but it is hard to say if that difference was caused by the biology of the brain or by training (my right hand who did a better job obviously is better trained in producing rhythm as my left hand).

Although both hands have to deal with rhythm it seems defendable that if there is indeed a biological difference in rhythmic potential of both brain halves, the half with the better carts should be favored for dealing with plugging the strings. Obviously i have no idea if the biological (difference in) rhythmic potential of both brain halves are automatically mirrored with left handed people, nor do i know if this is the case where it comes to specializing the fingers, but it seems their might be good reasons to fallow your instincts if you favor to play left handed. When i had to change from right hand bow shooting to left hand bow shooting because professionals favor to support the best aiming eye of a new student rather then their personal hand preference i lost interest pretty soon. In regard to the question i have no idea what to advice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2014 21:18:00

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Need help with student (in reply to Erik van Goch)

I have spent a little time thinking about the bilateral problems inherent in guitar Eric. A few weeks back I posted an exercise designed to keep the left hand rhythmically active whilst practicing tremolo.

On reflection that was a waste of my time. The dedicatee didn't even acknowledge my effort.

I will persevere with it though, you know .....because ,,,,you know.... I got the point.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2014 22:41:21