Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: I have a preference for por arriba.
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Ricardo
Posts: 14803
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
 RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (in reply to guitarbuddha)
|
|
|
quote:
Minor key standards and swing tunes are not arbitrary collections of modulations. They are like perfect little mechanisms to guide the soloist and listener.
Of course there are different approaches to a chart, it's just taste. But as far back as be bop, advanced players start ignoring that bigger picture, one scale fits all approach. It's more sophisticated but like you pointed out with minor key charts, the accidentals start making a more bland flavor if over used. But it's just taste. My personal favorite thing is lydian and I go out of my way to sneak it in to any tune.
quote:
The progression is Bossa Dorado in E. There is no doubt as to its correctness. Your insistance that an alternative interpretation with no tonic whatever and conveniantly ignoring the half diminished is wrong on every level. This must be why you are laughing.
Well, I was laughing because you used an example excerpt to show that the V7 does not come only from major key, but ironically your example ends on a B major chord. Anyway, no doubt to the correctness I would agree if you had given me more info to go on than the 4 chords you gave me. For example F# half dim is just a triad, could be ii chord from minor OR , considering the next chord has b9, could just be the 5,7 and b9 of the same darn harmony. (personally would sub for that triad C6(#11) or Am6 here driving in the flamenco sounding B resolution). If you had said F#-7b5 it is a more clear ii chord from minor key. But anyway, the real point is that borrowing dominants is all serving the same purpose, to pull or tonicize the next chord. And THAT idea, pulling resolving tonicizing originates not from minor or exotic scales, but from what simply happens with in the MAJOR chord scale. And we have moved off the main topic that flamenco uses 3 keys not only two. Anyway not sure point of any more argument from here as we both seem to get the points being made.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2014 15:39:52
 |
|
El Burdo
Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
|
|
RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
there is no "I7b9" in tonal harmony analysis. It's V7(b9)/iv
Ah. You mean like the Por arriba finish with E(7b9)? The V7 of Am? (The iv would be D, the 7th in this context)
Similarly, quote:
So this idea is happening with the aug6 chord. Except it't VI7-->V
Did I say that the chord sequence was VI to V? Yes, I did. :-)
While I'm here, you seem to be referring to the augmented 6th chord as if it were on the augmented sixth degree of some scale or other. That's not what they are as I recall from my school Mozarting lessons. Augmented 6th chords are named as such because they contain an Augmented 6th interval above the root. They are used in certain specific places, viz: flat VI, flat ii and IV. They sometimes function as inversions of dominant chords taking us to other key centres. But I can't see a 6+ in anything you have offered...so I think they are a red herring.
quote:
in flamenco the V IS THE TONIC
The V is the home. The tonic is the I.
quote:
Hysterical? Glad you think it's so funny
Sorry maybe I shouldn't have said hysterical. I'm not laughing at your thinking, really. No really. I should have said histrionic.
quote:
So I was referring to the tonal harmony concept
This may be the key to our differences but the terminology is so opaque it might not be. But, use of latin numerals is common across both major and minor harmony - you may have come across it first with major scales but it doesn't stop there. I also don't like your use of the word 'modal' to describe chords derived, or harmonised, from scales, if that is what you are doing. The chords provide functional harmony and they describe perfectly well what is happening in flamenco as they do everywhere else. But...I use the term harmony to describe vertical groups of simultaneous pitches, not the requirements for development of melody which I'm starting to wonder isn't what you're saying?
In a lot of Frank Zappa's music he uses the Landini cadence; though I guess not coming from the world of 14th century motets he would have called it 'the Dweezil' as he wouldn't have wanted to use the correct terminology no doubt, and to make it somehow specially rocky. No, he wouldn't. It's a Landini cadence and describes perfectly what is happening harmonically. I'm with Frank. Until death.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2014 16:52:27
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14803
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (in reply to El Burdo)
|
|
|
quote:
Ah. You mean like the Por arriba finish with E(7b9)? The V7 of Am? (The iv would be D, the 7th in this context)
Out of context from what I was saying to the other guy you pulled that from, but perfect example where the Roman Numerals need to be allowed a 3rd tear for usage to describe music whose tonic is not Major or Minor key based. THe fact its not allowed in tonal harmony practice of analysis is why I have been saying you won't find this phrygian key idea taught in the traditional theory class. it's fringe.
quote:
Did I say that the chord sequence was VI to V? Yes, I did. :-)
Yes but refuse to admit it's a resolution, and that in the case of flamenco we must replace the Roman numerals with II-I.
quote:
While I'm here, you seem to be referring to the augmented 6th chord as if it were on the augmented sixth degree of some scale or other. That's not what they are as I recall from my school Mozarting lessons. Augmented 6th chords are named as such because they contain an Augmented 6th interval above the root. They are used in certain specific places, viz: flat VI, flat ii and IV. They sometimes function as inversions of dominant chords taking us to other key centres. But I can't see a 6+ in anything you have offered...so I think they are a red herring.
I never referred it as any such thing. I only mentioned the harmonic practice as per analysis as the example in normal class room theory teaching as addressing the issue, indirectly, of what happens in flamenco cadence that is different than other tonal music cadences. To go into technicality, the idea behind the practice is that accidentals are enharmonically miss spelled and therefore require a special description of the simple harmonic move that is going on. Enharmonically miss spelled for the sake of part writing and voice leading. The practice admits these chords are always found in first inversion, but every guitar or piano player would know that the bass note is actually the root. The miss spelled "6" being raised or "Augmented" taking the role of 'root" as per the misspelling of the flat 7th (harmonically making a dominant 7 sounding chord). It's weirdo and wacky....but could be re vamped to describe what goes on with flamenco guitar quite nicely.
quote:
The V is the home. The tonic is the I.
When talking about flamenco, tonic and home are the same. Any music for that matter. Roman numeral "I" should be used, not V. Makes no sense and turns out miss leads as to the point of the music.
quote:
I also don't like your use of the word 'modal' to describe chords derived, or harmonised, from scales, if that is what you are doing. The chords provide functional harmony and they describe perfectly well what is happening in flamenco as they do everywhere else. But...I use the term harmony to describe vertical groups of simultaneous pitches, not the requirements for development of melody which I'm starting to wonder isn't what you're saying?
Modes ARE scales. Functional harmony only applies to keys. Vertical groups of pitches are not necessarily making functional harmony, even when they change. Functional harmony only needs V-->1. Anything else is looked at as "Modal" music. When talking to Gbuddha he kept referring a scale that might contain a chord, or conversely scales that might fit a chord plus their "extensions". This is "modal thinking" as I stated earlier, stems from the concept a 13 chord IS a complete mode. I kept saying he thinking modally as I was going for the reasoning behind Roman Numeral usage to analyze tonal harmony of a KEY. Trying do make the distinction between concepts was all.
About Landini, sure if it is a one of thing here and there that is used no probs. But what we refer to HERE with flamenco is more significant, as to describe harmonic moves of solea as the exact ones used in Farruca for example, is simply incorrect.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2014 17:36:29
|
|
El Burdo
Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
|
|
RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (in reply to guitarbuddha)
|
|
|
quote:
Am C7 F6 E7b9
now add AmM7 and it's where it wants to be.
Your C7 is a revoicing of F#7alt, your F6 is a revoicing of Bm7b5 (ii), E7 is V and it resolves to Am(M7 if you like). This is an undercover 1, 6, 2, 5 (OK THIS PART IS WRONG BUT I'LL LEAVE IT IN :-) or 3, 6, 2, 5 if you think of your Am as C6) - isn't that Tengo Ritmo? - give me a break.  **
[I did try your progressions, but I don't hear anything new. The #11 made it more flamenco but I still stand by what I've said. You guys say I should accept E as I. I say you confuse theory with music and can't let go. Let's leave it at that?
I may come to your view and I'll let you know, but I won't accept any more patronising remarks - I'm not your student and I've been doing this too long.
Anyway, FWIW that's it for me as I do actually think it's disrespectful of a musical idiom that I love and have listened to all my life. It's the music isn't it!
It's been fun. Really. Leñador is the one who's right here though.
** A revoicing of I Got Rhythm as I'm sure you all know substitutes the 1, 6, 2,5 with diminished chords going up. So, Instead of |Bb, G7alt, Cm7, F7 | % | we would get | Bb, Bdim7, Cm7, C#dim7 | Dm7, Db9, Cm7, B7 |. That might be interesting to hear from a flamenco player's perspective and in the appropriate idiom.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2014 22:43:58
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.078125 secs.
|
Printable Version
