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RE: Felipe and Mariano making the same guitars?   You are logged in as Guest
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C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

Thank you Conde-haters. Just keep talking 'em down and maybe soon I will be able to pick up another spectacular bargain!


I'd just like to go on record stating that I am by no means a Conde hater.
I've played many Condes that I really liked and others that I didn't like at all. I can say the same about numerous other makes as well.

If you read any of my past posts you'll see that I don't make disparaging remarks about guitars of any make but I'll freely admit that I have no problem calling out makers, dealers, individual sellers or anyone else on what I see as deceptive marketing practices, twisting of truths and sometimes outright lies regarding their instruments.

If people don't mind paying "individual artisan" prices for factory instruments, so be it. It's their money.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2013 17:46:16
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega


If people don't mind paying "individual artisan" prices for factory instruments, so be it. It's their money.


I think individual artisan prices are much lower, here we are talking about famous brand prices, at least for the felipe and mariano guitars that sell for over 8000 euros new. I think the main point would be the tone that comes out is true to the conde tradition not who makes them. Anyway if they don't make them themselves, I mean felipe and mariano then of course telling someone that they do is absolutely crazy. I have thought that mariano and felipe started to make the guitars in their shops themselves with assistants and that felipe V address guitars are the ones that were factory made. And judging by the 09 felipe v guitar I tried then indeed they mass produce them in a factory and use somewhat low quality top woods and the tone was pretty lame, altough it could be that it was a new guitar, as I don't know how much the tone changes after it's been played alot.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2013 17:54:24

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to tele) 
There are simply far too many of them out there to have been and continue to be made in just those small shops and there's certainly no shortage of them on the market. They're readily available.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2013 18:06:00
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
Things you must never discuss in polite company this Christmakwankzika:

-Religeon
-Politics
-Hermanos Conde

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2013 19:02:20
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to Arash) 
arash, i am at home so no i.t. conde filter. to finish the game started in the other thread, mariano (not faustino--oops, generational boo-boo) rats out felipe. felipe does his time in the chinese prison but escapes doing time in north korea as the warden allows him to stay in china and make guitars. the interpol agent is brought up on charges but before he is taken to court he wins the lottery and goes on the lam....oh wait, that story has already been played out by whitey bulger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2013 19:50:32
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

I'll never buy conde unless it's priced really low.. never know what we'll get.


I don't understand comments like this. Unless you're going to buy a guitar without trying it first. I don't understand why anyone would do that....




sorry. i meant unseen. Didn't know why I missed typing it..

btw, i'm not a conde hater.. I like my old teacher's conde.

The original post is about them getting guitar from the same source, altho being seperated. So I was wondering whether they are still in business together, even tho outwardly being split up.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2013 22:33:27
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
I would like for all the world to I am not a Conde hater I love Conde.
Who is Conde?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2013 23:51:45
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil


The original post is about them getting guitar from the same source, altho being seperated. So I was wondering whether they are still in business together, even tho outwardly being split up.


I don't know what kind of brothers would avoid making profit if it would mean just working together. I really wouldn't be surprised if mariano and felipe make only the 10 000+ eur guitars in the shops and others would be shipped in from valencia, china etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they have never built guitars themselves as they probably have enough money by just being in the conde family business

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2013 0:01:57
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:


quote:


I'd just like to go on record stating that I am by no means a Conde hater.
I've played many Condes that I really liked and others that I didn't like at all. I can say the same about numerous other makes as well.

If you read any of my past posts you'll see that I don't make disparaging remarks about guitars of any make but I'll freely admit that I have no problem calling out makers, dealers, individual sellers or anyone else on what I see as deceptive marketing practices, twisting of truths and sometimes outright lies regarding their instruments.

If people don't mind paying "individual artisan" prices for factory instruments, so be it. It's their money.


I totally agree.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2013 7:56:36

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
I don't want anyone misinterpreting what I said in my second to the last post.

I certainly don't view myself as some sort of crusading vigilante on a mission to save a misinformed and gullible guitar buying public from unscrupulous shysters. Far from it.
I will say, however, that I do derive a certain amount of pleasure from watching the bullsh*t artists squirm and back-pedal to recover when a little common sense and a few simple statements of fact blow holes in their sometimes ridiculous claims.

Most of us are probably guilty, at least to some extent, of obsessing about this stuff on occasion but the bottom line is that in the real world they're all just guitars and nothing more no matter whose name is on the label or where they came from.

Whatever Felipe Conde or some Valencian guitar factory does is really of very little, if any, consequence in the grand scheme of things.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2013 17:31:07
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
I know many professional guitarrists and most of them have Condes. Why?

One example: Oscar Lago, a great friend and guitarrista de Cádiz, pursued me for several years to sell him a beautiful 1979 guitar of Mario Melero, de San Fernando, which had been property of el Niño de los Rizos, a guitarrista gaditano who had played for Caracol.

I eventually gave it to him on the grounds that such a historic guitar should be in the hands of a tocaor gaditano.

He played it for a while, in the company of Antonio el Pipa. Then he changed to a Conde..

Since he comes to visit me whenever he is in Cádiz, I asked him why. He replied that he loved the guitar so much that he became nervous travelling with it. So he decided to keep it at home for special occasions. He thinks that Condes are easy to play, easy to mic up and easy to replace through insurance if lost or damaged.

Professionals do not think like aficionados.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 25 2013 18:11:30
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

He thinks that Condes are easy to play, easy to mic up and easy to replace through insurance if lost or damaged.

Professionals do not think like aficionados.


I find that to be very true... in my little experience with Condes, I have found them to be quite easy to mic up and to be built solidly enough so that they could handle a lot of abuse (like traveling etc). So it would make sense that a pro like Lagos would prefer to gig with one, rather than put his more precious guitars in harm's way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2013 5:07:23
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

I'd just like to go on record stating that I am by no means a Conde hater.
I've played many Condes that I really liked and others that I didn't like at all. I can say the same about numerous other makes as well.

If you read any of my past posts you'll see that I don't make disparaging remarks about guitars of any make but I'll freely admit that I have no problem calling out makers, dealers, individual sellers or anyone else on what I see as deceptive marketing practices, twisting of truths and sometimes outright lies regarding their instruments.

If people don't mind paying "individual artisan" prices for factory instruments, so be it. It's their money.



You are pretty much describing my own experience with Conde. I have played quite a few, and I have owned two: a 2003 from the Felipe shop, and a 1998 from the Atocha shop.
The Felipe one was so so, but the Atocha one was actually a really really nice guitar.

I sold the Felipe one, at a huge discount, less than a year after buying it. I also sold the Atocha one because I needed the money. I did not want to let that guitar go because as Morante said, it was easy to mic up and solid enough to travel and gig with. But such is life, so it found a new home.

To be very honest, and this is just my own opinion and experience, I am not planning on buying a Conde in the near future. I might consider spilling the beans if I stumble upon one I really like, but otherwise, I have gone the artisan route now.

I have found many makers who will build you a really nice guitar for around €3,000 or less. This allows me to buy more guitars than if I bought a Conde, expanding my little collection, and I truly believe in supporting the sole artisan maker who's trying to make a living against the competition of bigger established names. Plus, and this is coming from a total guitar geek, I find it quite fascinating to discover new makers and get to talk about their approach to the art of making flamenco guitars etc... whilst hoping that I do stumble on the next Reyes/Barba/Marin Montero etc!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2013 5:22:10
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
I think that most the Condes that I´ve played (and some I´ve really liked) had one problem in common, that they sucked for new bass strings. With old bass strings they all sounded pretty dull in the lower register and thats one of the reasons they work well in front of a microphone because they have little feedback and a clear sound and as Morante said, pro players dont think like amateurs, Conde are good tools doing their job well, especially in front of a microphone. I personally prefer my guitars to have some more tonal characteristics and different sounds, but I kno, I´m not a pro.

This with the bass strings, beside being expensive has another side effect:
I think that 60 - 70% of the conde players I´ve seen on stage showed up with totally new bass strings on their guitars. result... poor tuning. I hate listening to guitars that are not in tune, and the poor singers that were to sing to that horror.
I remember a show in a local peña, where the singer got so pissed off because the guitarist was tuning his conde all the time incl. while the singer was singing that he told the guitarist to piss off or change guitar. He then borrowed a cheap factory guitar with old and oxidated basses on. It sounded like a cardbox guitar and rumbled like I dont know, but they got through the show and noone were happy.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2013 10:24:09
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to avimuno) 
quote:

I have found many makers who will build you a really nice guitar for around €3,000 or less.


This set me thinking. After playing one guitar for 23 years (poverty and satisfaction with what I had got) I bought a new one ... and another ... and another etc (because I had a bit more money). Looking back on that second period it is clear that the best was one of the least expensive. I wonder if others have had this experience.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2013 11:44:03
 
el carbonero

 

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
anders ,you think only the conde detune??

All the guitar with fresh strings detune., with a strong pro player

My conde stay in tune more long time and more quickly than other.

The conde haters are so ridiculous ,because all the professional play conde
Is it not enough?

The conde haters insults the majority of flamenco profesional.

All and all are played or play conde ,inclued vicente amigo,before his reyes is played conde!

Now i invite all the people who critics conde,to play mine and to compare with your guitars, and drink a whisky for forget the big slap of my conde.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2013 12:15:33
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
You got the the order of argument mixed up.

What he meant is that Condes will sound considerably less with old bass strings / only well with fresh ones; which again may be the reason for why performers will often gig only with new strings ...
And thus come playing with detuning guitars.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2013 12:57:45
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to HolyEvil) 
pros are different than amateurs,
they play conde because of insurance companies
and because they can keep their "better" and tunable guitars safe at home ...

and a christian fatwa on christmas...

LOLOLOL... you guys are amazing

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2013 13:07:06
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to el carbonero) 
quote:

anders ,you think only the conde detune??


Of course not. Read Ruphus reply and dont get so winded up because of a little conde farting. I have stated many times that I´m not a conde hater. No way.
But its christmas and during christmas we all repeat ourselves endlessly. Eating the same food with the same people, singing the same songs as always and wasting our time with the same old conde discussion on foroflamenco.
Its just so cosy and thats what christmas is all about.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2013 13:19:53
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
It seems to me that conde guitars come in several body shapes but I don't know about the internal construction... Are all conde guitars build basically with the same plans to try to achieve the famous and successful 70's conde sound?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 27 2013 17:20:30
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to tele) 
(Please be aware the following post contains elements of sarcasm and strong use of emoticons)

quote:

It seems to me that conde guitars come in several body shapes but I don't know about the internal construction... Are all conde guitars build basically with the same plans to try to achieve the famous and successful 70's conde sound?


At Gravina significant plantilla changes around 1974 and early 1980s and some bracing variation too. At Felipe V around 1990 another change in design. Be good to hear from anyone who can clarify or has more information?

Broadly speaking there is a 70s Conde sound but also an 80s sound.
Remember Pepe Habichuela's dreadful mid 80s Conde?


Pepe Habichuela also plays an awful 70s Conde.


Moraito's no better.


Tomatito has moved on now (maybe a better insurance policy? ) but here he is previously, I think 70's Conde, could be earlier?

Tomatito 80's Conde


Here's some other poor fool on an early 70's Conde.



Even when at the family home recording for a documentary some professionals are forced to play their worst guitars; Conde (for insurance reasons).


And of course there are countless videos on youtube of hard suffering singers being accompanied by poor sounding or out of tune Condes of all eras!


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 7:49:01
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to orsonw) 
quote:

And of course there are countless videos on youtube of hard suffering singers being accompanied by poor sounding or out of tune Condes of all eras!


This one you got wrong. All the old recording with singers are with condes in tune. Reason is that back then they didn´t have money to change the strings every time they had a show.
At christmas time we sing jingle bells and silent holy, night and we continue our never ending conde discussions. Its almost like a family gettogether. So nice and jolly and everyone happy.
Merry condechristmas to all of you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 12:35:47
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

All the old recording with singers are with condes in tune. Reason is that back then they didn´t have money to change the strings every time they had a show.


Yes, you're right, I suppose that's why I couldn't find any out of tune clips, only the ones with that sound you don't like!

But being serious I do understand and respect why you might prefer "more tonal characteristics and different sounds" of other guitars. I personally prefer the opposite, though I enjoy and respect many makers' guitars. I find that Conde's duller, focused, un-resonant sound means it's more of a blank canvas. (I also prefer old bass strings).

I also find that when I work with singers they always ask me to play Conde for the same reason- it gives them a focused tone but doesn't get in their way. I have a feeling that it may be as much because of singers as guitarists that Conde are so popular?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 12:48:58
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to orsonw) 
Ok so we now know that professionals gig with Conde because of insurance.
But why do they record their CDs with their Condes ?? lolol Recording insurance??

BTW, This is my personal and favourite insurance agent

https://plus.google.com/102711082920225813839/about?gl=de&hl=de

Rates:

One gig with a Conde: $50
5 gigs: $150
Unlimited lifetime conde insurance: $1000

Cheaper rates possible if you have a chinese conde.

Additional services:

Tuning insurance: $5 each gig
if your conde shouldn't tune properly,
you get an old used set of bass strings
for free for your next gig,
crappy sound included

He also gave me a small list of some of his customers


Nino Josele



Manuel Valencia



Diego del Morao



Daniel Casares



El Tuto



David Cerreduela



Enrique de Melchor



Jesus de Rosario



Nino Seve



Anton Jimenez



Chicuelo



Dani de Moron



Gerardo Nunez



Javier Conde



Jeronimo Maya



Nino de Pura



Jose Manuel Leon



Juan Carlos Gomez



Juan Carmona



Juan Diego



Miguel Angel Cortes



Oscar Herrero



Paquete



Pedro Sierra



Ramon Jimenez





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 13:06:03
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to orsonw) 
Tune up a tone and a half night before.

Guitar WILL settle in first hour of practice the next day.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 13:07:09
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
- And strings be worn out or out of accurate intonation correspondingly faster.
( After all wearing out is a progressive stretch.)

More gentle measures:
# keeping them under constant tension while winding up
# keeping exessive windings on the roller at minimum
# have windings add laterally ( towards the headstock sides)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 13:54:37
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to Ruphus) 
For every working solution there are always several alternatives offered which do not solve the problem (which is getting new strings to stay in tune on a given gig).

This is the internet, democracy in action.

For sure if you don't play a lot on a single guitar then by all means preserve the strings.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 14:02:43
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

Miguel Angel Cortes




Arash, Miguel Angel Cortes is playing his Cedar top Ramirez negra there... not a Conde.
I was lucky enough to try that guitar, which he sold recently... KILLER!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 15:44:14
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to C. Vega) 
Conde song
dinglingdong
singing the condechristmas song


Conde song
dinglingdong
singing the condechristmas song


Conde song
dinglingdong
singing the condechristmas song


Conde song
dinglingdong
singing the condechristmas song


COME ON ALL TOGETHER. ITS CHRISTMAS. ITS ALL SO SPORTING JOLLY.
Conde song
dinglingdong
singing the condechristmas song


AND ONE MORE TIME HERE WE GO AGAIN:
Conde song
dinglingdong
singing the condechristmas song


YYEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH. MERRY CONDECHRISTMAS EVERYONE.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 16:24:56
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Felipe and Mariano making the sa... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Conde song
dinglingdong
singing the condechristmas song








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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 28 2013 16:55:17
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