RE: Traditional flamenco is dead

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Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

If you don't have much time,
gypsy blood transfusion therapy is another option.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2013 15:51:20

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Arash)

Thats why you dont get many gipsy blood donors.

People may have never heard flamenco but once they receive a gipsy/spanish blood transfusion...instant bulerias!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2013 16:00:32

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

Thats why you dont get many gipsy blood donors.

People may have never heard flamenco but once they receive a gipsy/spanish blood transfusion...instant bulerias!

exactly.
my dream would be a mixed blood cocktail from paco and tomate (and few droplets from agujetas).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2013 16:07:00

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to mark74)

Is it really so rare?

What about Ricardo? What about Grisha?

They ain't exactly needing no deal with the devil. What gives with this 'no names' lark?

Mark is funny. I reckon the fate of traditional flamenco is secure, inasmuch as it is opinion, no matter the pedigree of the source, even against Mark's ferocious onslaught.

I don't think it's right to accuse Mark of anything but playfulness. One might as easily wonder if the price of 'deep knowledge' is ending up shaking one's walking stick at ignorant passers by.

All this gitano blood stuff is mumbo jumbo. It's delusional. It may be that cultural feedback alters physical phenomena but I cannot believe that such a manifestation could not, even among large and disparate populations (even perhaps this forum, for example) be present in black and white and rich and poor and yanks and even Scottish gits, such as myself.

It is nothing that good company in the right times and places, wouldn't fix. It is precious all right. But it is available. It all depends on how tightly one pulls the noose.

Killing it would perhaps require people to get put off.

I think Ricardo 'has it'. And Grisha. Both at wildly different places but not simply enough to get in the club, but to add new branches; new blood. Others here have posted very original music. Wonderful stuff.

But am I bad press for these guys? Given that all I can do is play along with a recording to be sure I'm 'in'.

But a few evenings of merriment should do the trick. I get embarrassed and someone says that's nice, but listen, try this, watch that.

It is deep. It is complex. But because it is about natural rhythm everything 'about it' has to be felt.

I'm not suggesting people are not perfectly welcome to tell others they are killing flamenco but we need to balance the accusation with the fact that it just ain't so.

So, how come it's all so 'unattainable'? What's a gitano? A gypsy right? Those guys been in Andalucia for generations. I'm a gypsy. I've lived all over the shop. Maybe I'm an original? A fifty-five year old with rhythm but a two-year old's flamenco perceptions. Maybe the travel and the guitar qualifies me for entry at a future date?

I'd guess there are thousands, hundreds of thousands, or more, people with the latent abilities of sufficient standard to blow the club open a little bit. ( How abouts a tiny bit as small as a single gene? Who knows?)

Incidentally, I once spent a drunken evening with a 'pure blood' gitano and I argued that I was more gitano than him. He wasn't offended in the least.

Traditional flamenco is a working men's club on a Saturday night.

And if you believe that is an insult to flamenco I'll meet you on Saturday at the nearest working men's club.

Please don't get angry or insult me or threaten to leave. This is all digital and in our heads. (And I scare easily.)

So, who thinks Ricardo ain't, you know, that thayng, wotsit, wot nobody never gets to have? And I'm fascinated as to how the wrong answer could even bear an attempt at justification.

This is interesting to me cause I need to learn. Bust it open peeps.

And, in the case of the two professional musicians whom I named, out loud, in public and fully-clothed, like everyone I have ever known does, when they talk about music ( except sometimes the clothes), should we not be trumpeting their craft? Indeed, are they not the evidence? The mojo trumping the mumbo?

Merry Christmas everyone... Seriously.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2013 16:32:11

Bliblablub

Posts: 60
Joined: Oct. 9 2013

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to z6)

I forgot how boring acting can be sometimes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2013 16:45:20

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
It takes a hell of a long time to learn culture. And its not something tecnical.

This. I think learning pure flamenco is about 50% culture, 25% musicality and 25% technique. There's more to it than just playing well...
I think also that the main point in playing flamenco is to enjoy it and when playing it to others, hope that they enjoy it, too

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2013 18:16:17

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Arash)

The best way of teaching a kid flamenco would be to place the kid in a house with many other kids, and a noisy and powerfull andalucian woman singing and dancing every day. Then the kid wouldnt even need a guitar or any other instrument. The kid would be flamenco. ole

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 7:20:15

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I wonder how much time the kid will have to wait until a Paco comes in tha house with a guitar and makes the air vibrate. Not too much i guess...

quote:

We just dont get the real feel and touch

I thought it's easier to get it with a guitar than with the voice.
Foreigners with a guitar manage better to reach aire and such than foreigners with their vocals cords imo.
But that's just a personnal observation relying on my neighbor relationship (so to speak). If I were in Andalucia I would certainly meet more guiris out there in the learning cante process and have a different perspective.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 8:39:41

duendesoul

Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 10 2007

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to mark74)

Most non Spaniards need to listen to more Flamenco Radio IMO.

Canal Flamenco Radio - is what the real stuff is about and shall remain th
at way.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 11:57:20

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

The best way of teaching a kid flamenco would be to place the kid in a house with many other kids, and a noisy and powerfull andalucian woman singing and dancing every day. Then the kid wouldnt even need a guitar or any other instrument. The kid would be flamenco. ole

Nice thought and definitely would work.

I remember being forced to learn Scottish country dancing at school. My initial objections as a proud ten year old were soon overruled by the proximity to burgeoning female flesh. And you have to learn a lot about musical structure dancing to memorise the steps and avoid tripping up. It was also good that there was at home a player of the music.

But it took a long long time for me to place any value on that.

As a distant observer of flamenco culture I am unable to share any mourning for it's loss as I have the privilege of being able to at least listen to as much of the music as I choose. And if the modern players and interpreters treat traditional flamenco music it with as much respect (and they do) as a good classical musician treats other musics from past culture then I at least am glad.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 12:38:49

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

The best way of teaching a kid flamenco would be to place the kid in a house with many other kids, and a noisy and powerfull andalucian woman singing and dancing every day. Then the kid wouldnt even need a guitar or any other instrument. The kid would be flamenco. ole

ok, a serious comment:

The advantage comes from one thing only:
The enviroment around you and what you were
doing as a kid and teenager. Thats true.

The problem is that even in gypsy famillies, most kids are not interested
to be the next cantaors (with cante the problem is bigger than
guitar). Even most gypsy kids are busy with facebook and whatsapp, or want to
be a pop star, like most other todays kids. This is a universal problem, not
only a "flamenco" problem.

As a kid, you always absorb and learn things (anything, be it guitar, cante,
or whatever) MUCH MUCH deeper (and of course faster) than let say a 25 years
old grownup.

On the other hand, flamenco is much more global and spreaded all
around the world (also through todays technology, mp3, youtube, etc.).
Thats a positive development. You could even say Cante in general is now
more popular in the world than in the past.

But the quality and important nuances and details might suffer because
some essence is lost because of lack of interest within the flamenco gypsy
community itself and because in those important teenage years, it doesnt
get passed from padre or uncle, etc. to the kid.

This might be a bold statement, but Gypsies are the "main culprit", not
so much the fakemencos, foreigners, etc.
Its mostly their own responsibility the preserve their own heritage.
Of course, you can't force kids to do something.
Maybe thats a natural development.
On hand hand its a pity, on the other hand some new interesting new
things might happen, who knows.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 13:31:07

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to mark74)

I started playing flamenco 56 years ago so perhaps this thread is supposed to be about the kind of flamenco from this period. Well I don’t recognise any kind of consensus from this period. It was full of arguments . You can get some of the flavour from Estela’s article on Antonio Mairena (3rd one on http://www.flamencoexperience.com/blog/?cat=124 ) I recall when Mairena was booed at a bull fight by those who hated his singing.

The use of the term “traditional flamenco” implies that flamenco can somehow locked in time – perhaps in some kind of golden age. There is plenty of music that has this kind of characteristic – endlessly re-performed and prized for its purity. Flamenco is above all a living and developing form. It will not sit still, it laughs at the purity police and fortunately, takes no notice of the conversations on this forum.

For me flamenco can be the pretty cante of Juanito Valderrama (and its reworking by Mayte Martin), the sublime Camaron, a night in a small village pena, the experimentation of Enrique Morente and Mairena of course.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 20:18:47

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Arash)

Rob, I'm not sure you've made your point. Certainly there was no (or little) consensus then, now or ever about who was or is the best/most representative/most whatever cantaor at any given time, but that's not evidence that there wasn't some consensus about what was flamenco itself. When I read Zata's article about Mairena (whom I was never a great fan of), I was startled by her assertion that "In my experience, it's rare for any serious flamenco fan to acknowledge that both of these men (Mairena and Manolo Caracol) are indispensable figures." I don't know about you, but I don't know of anyone who enjoys the cante of "traditional" flamenco who doesn't think both were indispensable figures. I, like you, feel there is a welcome place for all the various personalities you mention at the close of your post. But Zata's article doesn't really deal with the issue of whether or not flamenco is a living and developing form. You'll have to search elsewhere for evidence.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2013 23:55:05

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to runner)

Last night in the Café Teatro Pay Pay, we had wonderful flamenco: al cante Miguel Rosendo and his friend Emilio, both cantaores de Sara Baras. Al toque, one of the finest guitarrists in Spain, Román Vicenti.

Cante por Alegrías, Martinete con Debla, a great Soleá de Cádiz rematado por bulerías and featuring the astonishing baile of Dani Saltares, primer bailaor de Sara Baras. A short percussion solo on a minature tambourine by Pájaro which brought people to their feet. Then Malagueñas de Mellizo, followed by tangos which featured the baile of Andrés Peña de Jerez.

An interlude of 3 part harmony with two of the best singers from Carnaval and finally a villancicos in which participated the entire audience.

Real flamenco is alive and well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 13:15:19

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I have no power to kill flamenco, like Arash said they're committing suicide. Its like the scene has no serious interest in making money

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 21:22:21

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Arash)

xactly.
my dream would be a mixed blood cocktail from paco and tomate (and few droplets from agujetas).

To drink?

I've heard of flamenco zombies, but flamenco vampires..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 21:26:47

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to tele)

I think tangos, fandangos and rumba could easily be more popular among Latins at large and even beyond that if there was more interest in commercialization

The asymmetrical stuff /solea, siguirya, buleria is pretty gipsy to the core and doesn't seem to hook non musicians outside of Spain

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 21:38:01

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Arash)

what is traditional flamenco? played on a old guitar? played by someone without a doctorate in music theory?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 21:48:37

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to rickm)

The traditional palos played in the traditional ways....what I'm getting at is that flamenco needs to market the popular angle better...for a while Nina Pastori was showing some promise getting some coverage Univision, but that was about five or six years ago. No one has picked up the mantle of the Gypsy Kings

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 21:59:01

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to mark74)

quote:

I have no power to kill flamenco, like Arash said they're committing suicide. Its like the scene has no serious interest in making money

You are far out and 100% a troll. You are NOT interested in flamenco. Why do you write all this crap? It seems to me you are only trying to make trouble and stirr up things. Be ashamed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 8:15:26

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Just to be clear:

what i wrote has nothing to with the radical weird "interpretation" (making serious money, commiting suicide, etc.).
i meant something different which i hope is obvious and doesn't need to be explained again. It was mainly about the quality and nuances of cante for instance.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 9:00:56

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to duendesoul)

I love listening to Canal Sur flamenco radio and am listening to it at the moment, but when I play it for anyone else (a) they ask me what it is (b) they ask me to turn it off

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2013 8:11:50

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I was looking for discussion and opinions, so I won't complain about anyone's opinion and in fact I thank you for contributing to this thread, but I'm not ashamed and have nothing to be ashamed of.

The fact is that more commercialization would bring a higher profile and that would be good for the art as a whole including the heavy classical stuff (for lack of better terms)

More commercialization could lead to a breakthrough in the American market (it happened before in 88 with the GK's) and thats good for everybody. It would even be good for your business.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2013 8:20:20

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to Arash)

I didn't mean to misquote you, but I was alluding too your point about young Andalucians. They aren't s interested in carrying on the older stuff and especially aren't interested in the harsh cante styles. And why should they be when they are both difficult and unpopular?These kids aren't fools. A lot of them would probably think the attitudes of the handfull of foreigners who go crazy over the stuff is romanticized nonsense

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2013 8:24:28

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to mark74)

Why do you think they ask you what it is? Why not just turn it off?

I'm sure if they saw it performed their reactions would be different. In general, I'd always choose what these guys would consider 'traditional' only when I see it 'live'.

I am drawn as a player to the more 'accessible' parts. Just more fun in a time- limited life. So I'm always listening, by default, to broader stuff.

I find the radio stations blanketed with too much cheese.

It's a different world 'live'. Different things matter. The drama is thrust upon the listener. (But someone here has remembered how boring acting is. So, who knows?)

Music lives when it is played. It's not about advancement. It lives and dies and evolves and gets dusty. It's only religion to the religious. It all belongs to all of us. Stealing and altering is written into the DNA of the form. It can't 'die' it's already everywhere.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2013 8:40:43

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to z6)

True, its not completely dead and probably never will be while there are people, I was using hyperbole, but it just isn't selling like it used to.

When I was a kid it wasn't the most popular music, but it looked like it was growing. I think its going in the other direction, but I think it has a lot of unused potential

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2013 8:48:39

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to mark74)

quote:

The fact is that more commercialization would bring a higher profile and that would be good for the art as a whole including the heavy classical stuff (for lack of better terms)

what you're asking for is already a reality. There's a bunch of commercialization, fusion pop, light stuff, flamenquito and so, going on.
If this is really what you want to listen to, then you could probably listen to it all day long whitout replaying a single tune. You just have to search for it.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2013 9:08:16

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

The fact is that more commercialization would bring a higher profile and that would be good for the art as a whole including the heavy classical stuff (for lack of better terms)

what you're asking for is already a reality. There's a bunch of commercialization, fusion pop, light stuff, flamenquito and so, going on.

Don't forget this one Mezzo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2013 9:59:06

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to KMMI77)

ahah indeed Kris

US market at it's best.
with Paco himself as special guest...

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2013 10:16:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Traditional flamenco is dead (in reply to mark74)

Topic comes up a lot. General consensus I feel is the dance and guitar have evolved and developed A LOT although seem to have leveled off the past decade. More sophisticated and artisitic than before. But the cante has gone down. The high point was the golden era (even before Mairena and Caracol) where there was even creativity of each form, but now the creativity of singers falls in the realm of pop songs. Cante stopped evolving and growing long ago. It is classically preserved and it seems good or bad cante (to an aficionado) is about the authenticity of the interpretation. While it is preserved by some, it is hardly what it was in terms of skill when you seriously investigate the older singers. THe more skilled singers today end up just copying Camaron or turn to pop songs, young people are not inspired to learn the old forms...death is around the corner.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2013 14:59:08