Recuerdos Opinion/Question

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ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

Recuerdos Opinion/Question

Right, so i have a question about this piece, i'm very aware that the rhythm is played with the thumb, and the lead is played with index and middle in a free stroke fashion.

My question : I'm agressively trying to learn traditional picados, and i'm a fan of this song ( Thumb resting on the E , and index and Middle doing all the work. So my I and M are going to be playing on the higher 5 strings , rather than the higher 2 strings ( in pitch ) Is there any reason i shouldn't do that? ( I know it's not an easy piece , but i'm in no rush, and i know how to practice right )

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 17:34:36

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

I don't really understand your question. Perhaps if you can clarify more, then I might be able to help you...

What piece are you talking about? Who is the artist?

What is your question about picado exactly? I don't get it...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 19:28:17

Graham_B

Posts: 283
Joined: Jul. 10 2007
From: Leigh, Lancashire, UK

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Hi Zaid

Are you asking about the classical piece 'Recuerdos de la Alhambra' by Tarrega?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 19:33:07

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Yes, Tarrega, , that's someone playing his piece. notice how he uses the thumb for the rhythm, and M and I for the lead. I want to attempt doing both parts with the M and I , in a rest stroke fashion, as in i won't be using the thumb at all, is this unadvisable?

Sorry i wasn't clear

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 19:46:24

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

If you are referring to "Recuerdos de la Alhambra," by Francisco Tarrega, it is not played using picado nor with the thumb playing "rhythm" (whatever you mean by "rhythm"). Recuerdos de la Alhambra is played in its entirety using the classical tremolo (PAMI), with P playing the bass and AMI playing the melody as tremolo.

Cheers,

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 19:54:42

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

I see Barkwell , thanks for correcting me, however back to the same question, is it unadvisable to use picados for this rather than classical tremolo ( PAMI )?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 20:20:41

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

'Recuerdos de la Alhambra

Wow that's really a freewheeling interpretation! Can't say I care for it but he does get great tone. The best performance was Segovia's made on his old Ramirez with gut strings which gives a special sonority I think. A performance fails if the b on the second string/12 fret made with that rapid excursion up to the 10pos in the middle section is not really nailed. I had this recording in a boxed set of 45s which assembled all the great string players of the era.

edit: if your goal is to play flamenco you might consider using a flamenco tremolo
but picado won't work here and your thumb will be kept busy ranging across strings 2 thru 6

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 20:30:57

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Here's a video lesson from a well-known teacher on tremolo in the usual classical mode. He's a faculty member at Pomona College, and a regular performer.

Note that at 4:26 he emphasizes that only the thumb moves from string to string playing the basses, while the arm and fingers remain stationary over the treble string that has the melody.

I have never tried what you suggest, using a finger or fingers to play the basses, but it would seem to me that it would be hard to get up to very much speed and to keep the succession of notes even. Using picado would mute the bass when it moves up to a string next to the treble.

I used to play the piece with "flamenco tremolo" PIAMI.

In the first sentence I say, "the usual classical mode". Some, instead of PAMI play PMIM or PIMI. For example, Ana Vidovic uses only the I and M fingers on tremolo, and does quite well. Some have suggested that Segovia did this too.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 21:22:42

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

I used to play the piece with "flamenco tremolo" PIAMI.

I learned the flamenco tremolo first and still find it much easier than the classical tremolo to play smoothly and evenly. As a result, I, too, played Recuerdos de la Alhambra with the flamenco tremolo. The problem is with the extra stroke, it causes the piece to go slower than it should, and to my ear doesn't sound quite right.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2013 22:06:24

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Ah, i wasn't aware there was a difference between classical and flamenco tremolo, i've already started learning classical tremolo. Won't it affect me negatively if i try to pick flamenco tremolo afterwards?

Thanks again for the help!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 1:14:43

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

Won't it affect me negatively if i try to pick flamenco tremolo afterwards?

Most who work at it can learn to play both equally well. In my case, I only play flamenco (to the extent that I play anything well at all) and thus have stuck with the flamenco tremolo. I just wanted to learn "Recuerdos" because it is such a beautiful, shimmering tremolo piece.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 11:11:14

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Here's a video lesson from a well-known teacher on tremolo in the usual classical mode. He's a faculty member at Pomona College, and a regular performer.

I honestly feel that it is important to note that when he advises the viewer to 'relax' his whole body stiffens. It is quite possible to be remember to be conscious of unnecessary muscular activity without tensing the neck and with it the whole body.

At least he isn't explaining 'deep breathing' 'exercises' by puffing up his chest.

Ah well, noone is perfect.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 11:22:55

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

It's possible to play classical tremolo pimi or even piai. Sometimes I'll run through Recuerdos pimi with im rest stroke as an exercise. It doesn't hurt to try things from different angles. The pami trem can really move when you get it going, though. Just be careful with how much you practice these techniques, they can mess up your hands.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 13:19:59

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

I want to attempt doing both parts with the M and I , in a rest stroke fashion, as in i won't be using the thumb at all, is this unadvisable?

Oh, that's your question .... then the answer is a flat NO.

But why not do the whole thing with the thumb or a plectrum ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 13:56:38

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Thanks for the help guys =] , will look into both techniques eventually. and Budha , go to hell.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 17:04:07

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

I've known Buddy Wachter for years.
He also plays one helluva rendition of Sousa's Stars and Stripes Forever with a pick .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 17:08:32

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

and Budha , go to hell.

For being the only one bothering to answer your clarified (and in a way repeated) question, giving a very enjoyable alternative on top of it ?????? My answer by the way would be YES (unless you are Nuñez) :-).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 18:49:26

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

and Budha , go to hell.

There is no hell, only other people

I am not offended by the way, and neither should you be. I thought that this was a joke question but if you genuinely feel deeply about this here are my non sarcastic thoughts.

Playing picado will do nothing at all for the piece. The alto voice will not sustain spoiling the articulation of the four part harmony and reducing the sonority. No one has ever played picado at the required speed for the length of the piece in recorded history.

More importantly I cannot think of a single piece of music for which practicing in this way would offer an appropriate preparation. Better to play some Vivaldi or Bluegrass fiddle tunes or a Gypsy Jazz waltz or a book of clarinet studies to challenge the range of your picado.

If you are still determined to play it mostly rest strokes and not using the thumb then it would be physically possible to do so with this fingering

iAMI aIAM

where a lower case letter indicates a free stroke. It would still sound better pami.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 19:30:56

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Recuerdos Opinion/Question (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Some times climbing a long extension ladder to the roof with your hands in your
pockets seems an exciting challenge, but I can think of reasons to not do it.

There are better ways to practice Picado, and/or Recuerdos in my opinion.

Regards,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2013 20:18:13