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Which factories make guitars for famous luthiers?
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
I don't think it's proper to talk about factory verses small shop building as most players are just looking for the best guitar at the best price. And this is achievable with both.
I agree with you that it is equally possible to obtain a fine guitar from both small-shop builders and factory-builders, Tom. Nevertheless, I think it is entirely proper to know if the luthier who signs the label appended it to a guitar, stating that he is the "builder" of that guitar, actually built the guitar or outsourced it's construction. It all comes down to "truth in advertising." An outsourced, factory-built guitar with an individual luthier's signed label is a form of false advertising and, in my opinion, vaguely unethical. That many luthiers do it does not make it any more ethical.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 9 2013 14:29:09
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to anthony32)
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quote:
A factory, no matter how small, supplying a luthier is very different from Antonio Marin having his nephews working in the same shop.
And who determines this? Does this make a difference in guitar quality? I know for a fact that Manuel Adilid has his Valencia factory that produces about 12,000 guitars a year, segregated into several departments for quality control, with the idea of supplying different price lines for students and professionals.
A close friend of mine visited Marin's shop and played a number of guitars before he found that special one for his purchase, 8,000 to 10,000 dollars retail. This is characteristic of any shop until you get toward much higher prices, and then there is still a difference from one guitar to the next.
Also, I understand that there is a shop price and a retail price. But the point is that quality control in any shop is vitally important for good instruments, and it's impossible to imply that a smaller shop has better quality. The small shops have a certain advantage though. Some collectors would prefer to have a more personal connection to one builder than many hands in the pot.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Dec. 9 2013 14:43:41
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to anthony32)
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I understand where you are coming from but here is the dilema.
As soon as your guitars become famous and thought after and as soon as the number of your customers and requests increase,
you have two options: Get help (more workers, outsourcing, etc.) and sell more and faster or make a long long waiting list
and build everything yourself.
Now if the Conde brothers for instance would have built all the guitars they sold theirselves, there would probably be
a waiting list for the next 1000 years. Look how many Condes are out there, nearly 95% of the professionals have one or more
and a LOT LOT more amateurs and others. And most of the pros know exactly that Felipe and Mariano did't sit alone in their
workshops and build the guitars in a romantic lonely way like for instance Anders does, without any help or outsourcing.
Now if you look at guitars as pure ART, then Anders approach for instance is the only ethical way to go.
If you want to buy a painting from an artist, you don't want anybody else been involved.
But guitars are also tools! Tools for musicians, they need them, they use them, they beat the hell out of them
and most musicians need good tools fast! And once a tool becomes famous for whatever reason, you need to build more
tools fast!
Now Conde brothers are luthiers but also smart business men for sure and of course there are luthiers out there with let say a bit
more severe standards (or whatever you want to call it).
I agree with Anders, in spain generally there is a more "oriental" type of looking at things and you must know that when you
are dealing with people there. Be it Conde or anyone else in any business (i actually also did other types of business with spanish
suppliers).
But nonetheless if i find a a really good guitar, i don't think about who exactly made it and i don't need the exact history of
the guitar from day 1 to delivery date. At that moment its only the guitar that counts and what that guitar is worth to you.
Of course you might also consider things like resell value (just in case), label, etc.
That said, i personally highly respect people like Anders who live up to their principles, no matter what comes, and i also totally understand their aversion against the practices discussed here, its sometimes like a lonely battle against the whole world. Like the Nelson Mandela (RIP) of luthiers 
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Date Dec. 9 2013 15:08:23
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
But I think this is unimportant for the whole view of guitars when we should look for the quality in any brand name rather than putting our attention on a label.
Would you pay the full value of a painting as if it were legitimately painted by Renoir, if you knew that the painting in front of you with Renoir's signature was actually painted by an artist in a studio across the Seine who mass-produced likenesses for Renoir to sign?
What would be the problem with a factory-produced guitar for, say, Conde or Ramirez, etc., having a label that stated something like: "Built by (name of factory) for (Conde, Ramirez, etc.) using (Conde, Ramirez, etc.) specifications? Such a guitar would have the same high quality it would have with the famous luthier's signature, and more important, it would be truthful rather than misleading.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 9 2013 15:34:31
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
How do we know that Renoir didn't sign a subcontractor copy as his own :-)??
That is precisely the example I mentioned in my post above. Would you pay the full value such a "subcontracted" painting, signed by Renoir, would fetch had Renoir actually painted it, rather than the artist toiling across the Seine producing many such "Renoirs" for his signature? If you knew Renoir did not paint it, although he signed it, would you consider it just as valuable as if Renoir himself had painted it?
However you may answer my question above, why is the situation with an "outsourced" Renoir (signed by Renoir but not painted by him) any different than an "outsourced" guitar signed by a luthier who did not build it?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 9 2013 22:32:13
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
If you want to buy a painting from an artist, you don't want anybody else been involved.
I believe many of the great paintings of Renaissance Europe were painted by a master doing the important parts and his apprentices or journeymen filling in details or background.
Even the most prestigious museums mention only the master. However, I'm sure if you asked a curator, they would fill you in on what may be known, or what they deduce from a close examination of the piece. So would an auction house like Christie's or Sotheby's. Other dealers….??
For the case of Renoir, he is known to have worked alone--at least I have never heard of any collaboration. Evidence of someone else's hand in a "Renoir" should make the prospective buyer extremely suspicious, at the very least.
There is a spectrum in guitar production. The lone dedicated artisan like Anders or Estebanana, or Abel Garcia, from whom I have a wonderful classical.
A shop like Marin's where very close associates work under the direct supervision of a master, who also does work directly upon the instruments. My favorite flamenca was made in such a workshop. I bought several guitars for friends from the Mexico City luthier Juan Pimentel Ramirez, who employed a handful of relatives, and taught one of his sons in his workshop. Pimentel had his tools in hand and worked away at the bench, even while interacting with customers.
An operation like Jose Ramirez III's where the design was his, there were many workers, no one did all the work on any single instrument, but all was under the direct, daily strict supervision of the master, who was himself a qualified luthier. I have seen a couple of guitars claimed by the dealer to have been made by Ramirez himself. One of them had a distinctive sound. But Ramirez never claimed to have touched any of the guitars I bought from him during construction. He vehemently maintained that every one with his signature had been personally inspected and tested by him. This was backed up by the former Ramirez employees I talked to.
At least four of Ramirez's former employees became well known luthiers on their own. They were very good all around luthiers before they left Ramirez. The three I talked to gave Ramirez the credit for teaching them their trade.
An operation where a famous name is applied to guitars outsourced to other workshops or factories, provenance unknown, daily supervision likely distant or nonexistent, quality control unknown. Apparently some such operations still sell some excellent guitars.
At a concert a couple of months ago I got talking to the guy sitting next to me. He works at the Collings steel string factory here in Austin. He manages a small group who do final setup. He is not only a qualified steel string luthier, he apprenticed at the Bosendorfer piano shop in Vienna for four years, and worked for Steinway in New York building their top concert instruments. He invited me to tour the Collings operation, with about 90 employees. I met Collings, who clearly was involved in design and operations, but maybe not to the extent of Jose Ramirez III.
In the old Conde shop at Gravina 7 in the 1960s and '70s there were three workbenches in the large room where you walked in off the street. Faustino himself didn't mind giving the impression to a tourist that he had been working away just a few minutes before, but I didn't believe it for one second. Once they saw I wasn't buying their tourist shtick, they didn't try to fool me any longer. But I saw a few tourists get the song and dance, and walk out with dreadful pieces of junk at the top price.
However, one of my friends has a '73 Conde blanca which is one of my favorite guitars, beautifully made, wonderful sound and playability. I have no idea who made it. It would be hard to convince me it was one of the Hermanos. But I tried to buy it from my friend more than once.
I thought the Gravina 7 store was a pretty shady operation back then, but if you were careful you could get a great guitar there.
Then there's the stuff you can get at Guitar Center. ;^/
I assume not many of the kids at Guitar Center have any idea that such a thing exists as an artisan luthier, working by himself. My son does know of artisan workshops, since he was with me a few times when we visited Pimentel. But he got a good deal on his Strat at Guitar Center, and he loves it.
He doesn't take his Strat to Guitar Center for any setup or fret work. It's the world famous shop of Dan Erlewine here in Austin for that.
So, take your pick. Draw your ethical line where you see fit. Caveat emptor. Enjoy your guitar.
RNJ
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Date Dec. 9 2013 22:48:55
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
However you may answer my question above, why is the situation with an "outsourced" Renoir (signed by Renoir but not painted by him) any different than an "outsourced" guitar signed by a luthier who did not build it?
If someone offered me a Santos copy with the original signature of Santos, and originally offered by him, I would gladly buy it if it was the same caliber as an original Santos. Guitars are a tool and paintings, although lovely to look at, are not in the same category.
But if I were a collector, then I would be more discerning about the guitar as an investment. So, I think it always holds true, "Let the buyer beware."
But to be fair with the builder who lends his name to a guitar, with his label, the copy would have to be of the caliber of his original work to warrant his signature. This is certified by the house of the Maestro....and if the guitar is not the same quality, then it will inevitably catch up with the house that sells the guitar, and possibly ruin the reputation of the designer.
I see this happening with designer clothes on occasion, even when the clothing is legally given the designer's name.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Dec. 9 2013 22:54:23
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
I believe many of the great paintings of Renaissance Europe were painted by a master doing the important parts and his apprentices or journeymen filling in details or background.
There is no question that many of the great paintings were painted with the master painting the important parts, and his apprentices filling in the less important parts of the painting. that would be analogous to a master luthier constructing the most important elements of a guitar with his apprentices providing the finishing touches. In both cases, the master painter and luthier have a direct hand in producing and overseeing the final product, be it a painting or a guitar.
It is a completely different situation, however, if the painting or guitar is "outsourced" to a subcontracted artist or luthier, working away from the master painter or luthier and without his oversight. To have such a painting or guitar signed by the master painter or luthier, as if he had painted or built the final product, is clearly misleading and, in my opinion, unethical.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 9 2013 23:06:55
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
but if you were careful you could get a great guitar there.
I had the same experience with other luthiers (i don't want to mention names, but very famous ones with small looking workshops!). If you walk in the shop like a tourist noob and ask for a flamenco guitar to try out, you get a crappy special tourist beach guitar to try out. Once they see you can play and once you ask for "another" one and let them know "not with me", things become different.
As i said, there are things you should know and learn to deal with in spain (and other places too). Or consult someone with experience if you are a total beginner.
Anthony32,
just saw your other thread requesting only a list and no discussion.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=247493&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#247493
Even if people should comment and mention exact names, there is no way to verify the information with solid evidence. It may end up as a collection of "hearsay" and it may even cause problems (even legal ones) for the operator of this site, Simon. because of defamation, etc.
However, if you insist on such a thing, asking the opposite would be better: mentioning luthiers like Anders, Andy and others here who work alone (Haithamflamenco suggested something similar in another thread). You could then simply use the "exclusion principle" method and ignore the unmentioned names if you want ;)
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Date Dec. 10 2013 14:05:40
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to liv)
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quote:
Dont know about these comparisons between a guitar and a painting. Its two so fundamentally different things.
The comparison between the two is not to suggest that they are aesthetically the same. They are, of course, fundamentally different, both aesthetically and in their primary purpose for being. My point was, whether it is a painting or a guitar, to sign one's name to a work that implies one created or built it when in fact it has been "outsourced" to someone else who actually created or built it, is fundamentally misleading, dishonest, and unethical.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 10 2013 15:41:56
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Morante
Posts: 2180
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Dont expect to be handed a the best guitar just because you think you are the best. Most probably, for the shop owner you´re just another foreign guitar butcher. At least untill you have proven yourself on bullet proof Valencia tank.
As usual, Anders is right. Once, when I was a penniless student, I bought a student Conde from Gravina because Rafael Romero said they had the best student guitars. At first, Faustino presented me with a piece of rubbish, which had gaps here and there, was virtually unplayable and made with unrecognizable wood.
I rejected it it out of hand and he had to produce 7 guitars before I would accept one. When I said this one is OK, he brought out a media luna, signed by himself. For only 35,000 pts I could have bought it, but I didn´t have so much money in those days.
The Pozuelo guitar which I bought, though it proved to be badly made, sounded great and I played it for some years until I decided to buy a good guitar. But a Conde, never! In fact, though I have played many, I have only played two good ones.
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Date Dec. 10 2013 15:58:28
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Which factories make guitars for... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
Please understand that just giving a top level French Polished guitar to whatever tourist entering the shop can be a ruin for the shop. Trust me, I know it. I used to work in one of these shops and I´ve seen "super advanced players" doing a George Foreman capirote outside the golpeador on a very expensive guitar and just walk away. Just one second and we talk about lots of money lost for the shop.
Dont expect to be handed a the best guitar just because you think you are the best. Most probably, for the shop owner you´re just another foreign guitar butcher. At least untill you have proven yourself on bullet proof Valencia tank.
An excellent point. What I found shady about the old Gravina 7 shop was that they would sell the "Valencia tank" to the tourist for the top price, as though it were one of the best guitars. I was astonished at how bad the first guitar was that they handed me. The neck was not only bowed, it was twisted. The frets were rough and uneven. There were visible gaps between the back braces and the back itself. The bindings were separated from the body in places. Of course, it played like a piece of discarded firewood. I played a solea falseta, and handed it back to the young man behind the counter without comment. He glanced at Faustino, who nodded slightly. The young man went to a back room and reappeared with an excellent guitar. So far, so good.
Any time I went back I was treated with courtesy and friendliness, and immediately shown guitars that were, in my opinion, suitably priced.
But on a number of occasions I saw them sell the junk guitar to an unsuspecting tourist for the price of a top quality instrument. I never spoke to any of those tourists. Once I saw one of them in the street a couple days later. I avoided him for fear that he might want to show me his new guitar. Having spent time in Mexico, south Texas and Spain, I had learned at an early age to mind my own business.
People used to say "No aceptas gato por liebre." That's because a skinned cat can look like a skinned rabbit. I have never knowingly tried to eat a cat, but I would think it wouldn't be nearly as good as a nice plump rabbit. If you can't tell the difference in the raw, you shouldn't go to the market without someone who can.
RNJ
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Date Dec. 10 2013 17:23:00
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