RE: PDL says you dont need to study !

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aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

. I'm getting through Falla's "Homenaje", but not reliably up to speed yet.

RNJ

Good choice.

The fast scale passage at about 1:10 has always bothered me and listening to a pianist presumably playing from the de Falla transcription makes it sound like a natural for picado tho I don't know if one can use this technique here. What do you think?

http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/edward441/media/ManueldeFalla-Homenaje-PourLetombeaudeClaudeDebussy-piano_cut_zps99244d68.mp4.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2013 21:56:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

I don't know if one can use this technique here.

Yes you can. Or you can use ligados. But to me this music is totally directionless and the technique for that passage is arbitrary.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2013 21:59:33

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ricardo)

It is clearly supposed to be like an Arastre.

Paco felt compelled to play De Falla and studied him extensively.

I remember when it was Aeolus who trumpeted his philistinism. Now that he has moved on shouldn't we ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2013 22:10:35

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Yes you can. Or you can use ligados. But to me this music is totally directionless and the technique for that passage is arbitrary.

Far be it from me to speak to that but according to Bream Benjamin Britten was impressed with the piece and said it had enough ideas for 20 minutes of music Perhaps why you see it as directionless. I see it as a dirge that tries to recreate the conflicting emotions of a grieving admirer. It works for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2013 22:14:03

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Arastre.

I am not finding that on google

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2013 22:16:53

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus)

Sorry missed an r

Arrastre. Draging the ring finger nail back across the strings. Like a harp gliss or index finger drag on piano.

It is supposed to be vague but dramatic.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2013 22:20:14

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blondie#2

Paco's own words:

'I had to learn this concierto without knowing how to read a stave. I came here with a music book that indicated the meaning of each note in the score. I played for 12 hours in a row everyday for a month'

He probably tried that at first, but basically he is lying here.

But of course

Seriously though, sounds like lots of guesswork and assumptions as to Paco's motivations etc. When was this interview you mention published - what mag and when?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 8:03:26

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Gerardo Nunez on the Concerto.

'For example two years ago I played 'El Concierto de Aranjuez' in Italy, and for a couple of months it was driving me crazy. It's a really hard piece to play, but I adapted it, played it and had a fine time doing so.'

Rest of interview here.

http://www.flamenco-world.com/artists/gerardo/nunez2.htm

Given the fact that Gerardo is probably able to play highly demanding pieces like La Barrosa we might conclude that either the Concierto is a bit more demanding than some give it credit for, or that both classical AND flamenco players are out of their comfort zone. Like Grisha stated, one main difference between classical and flamenco is that in flamenco the music comes from the technique (you can totally mould your notes around your specific (lack of) skills) wile in classical music the player has to find ways to play the supposed notes. Aside from technique there are differences in musical approach. Hard to tell if Paco's memory about his efforts to play it as intended is clouded, or that maybe not every hour he spend on it was done in the presence of JMG del Rey.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 11:11:38

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

A missive from my crystal ball. From the previous page.

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

How about I start a religion.
God is distant and all powerful. I know him best because I am the godliest. You may get to know him only through agreeing with me. You must find my arguments compelling no matter how fatuous otherwise you will be stoned as a heretic. Remember that you are unworthy and may redeem yourself only through agreeing with me etc......

Seriously though I prefer the Yamashita to Pepe Romero on the Aranjuez.

D.

NEWS just in Olympic legend Haile Gebrselassie announced that in order to be an olympic medallist ONE NEED NOT TRAIN !!!!!. Simply spend hours and hours every day running from an early age. That's right no training .....just lots of running. So you heard it here first. go on everyone sack your trainers (are they as good as Haile Gebrselassie....NO of course they aren't) and log onto Haile Gebrselassie's 'Get Great Without Training' website where skilled acolytes of Haile will advise you on how to BE better than people who foolishly train. Thats right you wont have to cope with the tedious business of 'GETTING' better you will simply realise that you ARE better. Yes that's right even if you don't have the time to do lots of running you will BE better.

(HAILEGABRESALASSIE.COM IS IN NO WAY LEGALLY ASSOCIATED WITH HAILE GABRESALASSIE THE PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL. HOWEVER ACOLYTES HAVE A CLOSER REALTIONSHIP TO HAILE'S DEEPEST THOUGHTS THAN COULD BE GLEANED BY MERELY LISTENING TO INTERVIEWS............ OR BEING HIM. )

(OTHER WEBSITES ARE AVAILABLE BUT PRNEWSOVISION(TM) RESERVES THE RIGHT TO POUR HYPOCRITICAL SCORN ON THEM AND TO ALIENATE ,MARGINALIZE AND BANISH THEIR SPOKESMEN)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 11:42:30

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ruphus)

Ruphus

Rather than clutter up this thread even further with my OT postings, I have replied to your question on the Off Topic forum.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 16:40:29

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

paco did not learn it from the score at all, it was too time consuming, so he just showed him how to play it in person....traditional flamenco style. (Mclaughlin and Al Di did the same since paco couldn't read charts or even pick up every detail from the tapes they sent him, but in minutes he learned the trio stuff face to face).

Still in a written and translated interview Paco claims that his concert tour with the trio was nerve wracking to him because the harmonies and scales used sounded like an alien world to a him. "I had sleepless nights about it, sometimes was totally lost and spend a lot of time trying to figure out which melody notes would fit on a certain chord. After each concert i had a headache". He explains his troubles by the fact that for the first time in his life he had to think about his actions. Up to that moment i had always played automatically without thinking but now i had to think all the time, at least in the beginning.

In an other interview he tells that he used a study book to analyze the de Falla pieces wile making a duet for 2 guitars. I first recorded the left hand of the piano, fallowed by the rest. According to Paco it was a very precise and time consuming activity but totally in line with the kind of discipline he loved in al his other activities. According to the dutch translation he said "maybe it's more simple to learn how to read but i don't feel like it. Also there is the danger you are going to play differently but in my case that is not very likely. I play what i feel anyhow. But a little bit more knowledge about theory and harmony maybe is recommendable on the long run. A lot of people claim that this influences your playing but i think that is just an excuse."

Obviously a written and translated interview is not a very reliable source but if that was indeed what he said in the mid/late 80ties he either changed his mind....... or is making up excuses :-).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 18:06:19

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

Still in a written and translated interview Paco claims that his concert tour with the trio was nerve wracking to him because the harmonies and scales used sounded like an alien world to a him.

Again, like with the classical projects, I feel paco is trying to champion the flamenco guitar in the face of the other guitar worlds, so he is exaggerating his insecurities and frustrations with being out of his element....but it is all by HIS choice. I would believe his words if I could ever find video of him on stage struggling. With McLaughlin he always looks SUPER confident, stoic....not the same for the other guys who even look worried at times or get lost with Paco. Poor Larry Coryell for example. totally lost. Now on the other guys tunes I don't see Paco use weird chord voicings and scales....He usually uses normal flamenco grips and picado falsetas that come directly from his flamenco recordings. So when I hear Paco talk like that in interviews I feel like "aw...come on give me a break man"... for sure it was a learning experience, but Paco also taught those guys a lesson or two about playing guitar, and he NEVER brags about that.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 19:03:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Sorry missed an r

Arrastre. Draging the ring finger nail back across the strings. Like a harp gliss or index finger drag on piano.

It is supposed to be vague but dramatic.

D.

I assumed he was talking about the scale run, not that part.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 19:07:00

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Again, like with the classical projects, I feel paco is trying to champion the flamenco guitar in the face of the other guitar worlds, so he is exaggerating his insecurities and frustrations with being out of his element....but it is all by HIS choice. I would believe his words if I could ever find video of him on stage struggling. With McLaughlin he always looks SUPER confident, stoic....not the same for the other guys who even look worried at times or get lost with Paco. Poor Larry Coryell for example. totally lost. Now on the other guys tunes I don't see Paco use weird chord voicings and scales....He usually uses normal flamenco grips and picado falsetas that come directly from his flamenco recordings. So when I hear Paco talk like that in interviews I feel like "aw...come on give me a break man"... for sure it was a learning experience, but Paco also taught those guys a lesson or two about playing guitar, and he NEVER brags about that.

i need a like button for that

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 19:16:39

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Sorry missed an r

Arrastre. Draging the ring finger nail back across the strings. Like a harp gliss or index finger drag on piano.

It is supposed to be vague but dramatic.

D.

I assumed he was talking about the scale run, not that part.

I was but GB seems to be talking about the rolled chord imiderately preceding the ascending/descending scale which is slurred on the way down which I don't like the sound. As de Falla was incorporating flamenco gestures a picado would do nicely and approximate the de Fall's piano transcription.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 19:20:06

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

As de Falla was incorporating flamenco gestures a picado would do nicely and approximate the de Fall's piano transcription.

It is indeed a piano TRANSCRIPTION which is a fairly literal arrangement of the guitar original.

Many consider this piece to be groundbreaking. Ben Britten, Leo Brouwer etc.

Britten was compelled to write his Nocturne as a response to Bream's performance of the De Falla. But for this he used as a basis a Downland piece.

Perhaps Britten saw that Flamenco is really Lutemenco which is a subgenre of Udemenco. In which case Picado is a poor substitute for heavy rest stroke picking with a quill.

And the modern fretless Ud is just a poor copy of the fretted original.

Yada yada.

For all Al's foibles he still quotes Paco and Jim Hall as his guitar heroes.

Why not add Downland and BB King......... without prejudice.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 22:08:16

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

For all Al's foibles he still quotes Paco and Jim Hall as his guitar heroes.

Al? Who he?

And you seem to be personifying PDLs distaste for scripted music. I mean you are shackled by all the precedents that inhibit any kind of reasonable approach.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 22:22:03

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus)

I guess I must be lost.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 22:34:50

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Now on the other guys tunes I don't see Paco use weird chord voicings and scales....He usually uses normal flamenco grips and picado falsetas that come directly from his flamenco recordings.

Only sincere of him to admit that no one of the three prepared himself beforehand for to blend their licks, frames and genres; and how everyone only noodled down their arsenal past the others´.
The man is too understanding and strong to fool himself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Paco also taught those guys a lesson or two about playing guitar, and he NEVER brags about that.

Such superiority making the pillars that provide to a down-to-earth master that strength to be blunt like above on lesser glorious productions like SNISF.

From there accidentally well delivered clues, Ricardo.

The project could had yielded musically really inspired if the trio had approached it humbly and dedicated enough for bridging merge first.

But at that time glory was flying high, making careless, which understandably occurs to nearly every major career. Usually realized as shallow affair by the artists later on the way.

I don´t estimate Paco to agree when folks sense the FNISF sessions as reasoned and polished Obelisk. He seems to have no use for laurel on fake jewelry.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2013 23:51:30

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
And the modern fretless Ud is just a poor copy of the fretted original.

One always knows to little of the subject to be sure but i ones read the "original" Ud as introduced in europe by the moors was fretless and the frets were a european additive.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2013 1:21:57

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Erik van Goch)

For sure the frets will have gone on and off over history. Kinda like the bass viol lost its frets on the way to becoming the cello.

According to this guy (Oud virtuoso Khyam Allami)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00t8j15/Front_Row_The_Secret_in_Their_Eyes_Tom_McCarthy_Khyam_Allami/

The frets were taken off in order to allow the incorporation of microtones. I think he touches on some of the history in that interview but it may have been another.

(EDIT I just checked and he does say that the frets came off around the nineteenth century (or maybe he says ninth, ninth seems more likely and there does exist german lute tablature much older than that but you can check for youself at 22.30) .
Heard this a few years ago so thought I would double check, although I did post the link here before in a discussion about modal music)

REALLY well worth a listen from about 21 mins where he comes in. Beautifully intune microtones are awesomely effective.(and that includes BB King and Nina Simone and maybe most of all Bessy Smith)

There will be an older fretless incarnation though but that is not the one that went first to europe.

D.

PS it is a shame that noone is gonna come along and tell me I don't know that the viol isn't the ancestor of the cello. That would be thrilling and not in the least dull.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2013 1:35:38

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

It is clearly supposed to be like an Arastre.

Paco felt compelled to play De Falla and studied him extensively.

I thought that rather than the chordal arrastre, Aeolus was referring to the passage that begins ascending from the open 6th string with seven 32nd notes, turns around with a 32nd note sextuplet, and ends with two 16th notes. It leads into a passage in 16th note triplets.

I enjoy the piece. It has six or seven colorful and strongly contrasting ideas (depending how you count them) in a time span that Tarrega typically filled with only two main themes.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2013 3:37:01

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

I said.
'Like a harp gliss or index finger drag on piano.'

On the harp and the piano the gliss will incorporate scales. De Falla did not play guitar and wrote only one piece for it (but a masterpiece at that and one of structural historical importance and not only for the guitar). He was a pianist.

If Aeolus question was in fact 'are rest strokes played in the classical guitar repetoire' then I don't know how to answer.

I am sure however that it could invite some shall we say 'unenlightened' responses.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2013 9:55:22

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

If Aeolus question was in fact 'are rest strokes played in the classical guitar repetoire' then I don't know how to answer.

My intent, which I though was clear, could the scale passage described by RJ be played picado
as I dislike the sound of the slurred descending notes. And as Ricardo noted it could also be played legato though as de Falla incorporated flamenco gestures picado is certainly that perhaps the quintessential. Would it be heretical to do so. What would Paco do, As discussed earlier alot of editing was applied to Rodrigo's concerto with the author of the Gramophone survey of Aranjuez recordings describing Paco's as "playing fast and loose" with the masterpiece not surprising given how he learned it but I still prefer it to all others. I have Siegfried Behrend's '66 LP coming so maybe that will be the best. The Gramophone describes it as fast with ornamentation in the first movement.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2013 10:48:13

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus)

I guess it is a mystery then.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2013 10:57:13

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I guess it is a mystery then

Upon reflection, idle speculation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2013 11:06:43

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

quote:

Still in a written and translated interview Paco claims that his concert tour with the trio was nerve wracking to him because the harmonies and scales used sounded like an alien world to a him.

yeah, don't believe all that negative stuff paco says once in a while.

1:30:55

the only 'nerve wracking' thing to him (and for anyone else anyway) is probably that he is getting older and fatter.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2013 11:47:32

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL says you dont need to study ! (in reply to aeolus)

I agree that Paco probably wasn't at all nervous to play with the trio. I also think that playing the Concerto was rather easy for him, after all it is him. Playing two totally different styles on stage in front of thousands of people is nothing for a genius of Paco's magnitude. Here are some more little known Facts about Paco de Lucia:

Paco de Lucia can slam a revolving door.
Paco de Lucia counted to infinity. Twice.
Paco de Lucia is so fast he can run around the world and punch himself in the back of the head.
When Paco de Lucia does a pushup, he isn't pushing himself up, he's pushing the Earth down.
Paco de Lucia can touch MC Hammer.
Paco de Lucia doesn't wear a watch. He decides what time it is.
In fine print in the book of Guiness Records it notes that all world records are held by Paco de Lucia, and the names listed are just those who got second place.
Paco de Lucia once visited the Virgin Islands. They are now just the Islands.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2013 15:43:19