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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread
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Bulerias2005
Posts: 632
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN
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 RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
Dubious and probably futile attempt and trying to look smart:
Cante jondo (grande?): seguiriyas, soleares, bulerias, cana, martinete, etc.
Cante grande (intermedio?): malaguenas, mineras, tarantas, tientos (? = levantes = fandangos?)
Cante chico: alegrias, boleras, bulerias (?), fandangos (?), nanas, rodena, sevillanas, tangos, etc.
fandangos, sevillanas, rumbas (where do rumbas fit above?) may or may not be flamenco depending on where you sit.
Solea and Seguiriya seem to be the "pure" forms of flamenco.
Fandangos is definitely not cante chico. It's considered to be one of the pillars of flamenco, along with soleares and siguiriyas. Fandangos is actually the basis for malaguenas (fandangos de malaga), tarantas, etc...
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Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
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Date Nov. 9 2013 19:58:30
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gmburns
Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Bulerias2005)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
Dubious and probably futile attempt and trying to look smart:
Cante jondo (grande?): seguiriyas, soleares, bulerias, cana, martinete, etc.
Cante grande (intermedio?): malaguenas, mineras, tarantas, tientos (? = levantes = fandangos?)
Cante chico: alegrias, boleras, bulerias (?), fandangos (?), nanas, rodena, sevillanas, tangos, etc.
fandangos, sevillanas, rumbas (where do rumbas fit above?) may or may not be flamenco depending on where you sit.
Solea and Seguiriya seem to be the "pure" forms of flamenco.
Fandangos is definitely not cante chico. It's considered to be one of the pillars of flamenco, along with soleares and siguiriyas. Fandangos is actually the basis for malaguenas (fandangos de malaga), tarantas, etc...
I guess I was suggesting that maybe there's different types of fandangos that fit into different categories, which is what I gather with bulerias, too.
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Greg Mason Burns - Artist
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Date Nov. 9 2013 21:19:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Bulerias2005)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
Dubious and probably futile attempt and trying to look smart:
Cante jondo (grande?): seguiriyas, soleares, bulerias, cana, martinete, etc.
Cante grande (intermedio?): malaguenas, mineras, tarantas, tientos (? = levantes = fandangos?)
Cante chico: alegrias, boleras, bulerias (?), fandangos (?), nanas, rodena, sevillanas, tangos, etc.
fandangos, sevillanas, rumbas (where do rumbas fit above?) may or may not be flamenco depending on where you sit.
Solea and Seguiriya seem to be the "pure" forms of flamenco.
Fandangos is definitely not cante chico. It's considered to be one of the pillars of flamenco, along with soleares and siguiriyas. Fandangos is actually the basis for malaguenas (fandangos de malaga), tarantas, etc...
I tried to be clear. The fandangos from huelva are not cante jondo...in fact some dont' consider them flamenco. Or rather there are musicians and singers that are NOT flamencos that only do fandango from huelva. The free or freer form derivatives of the original form from huelva WERE created by and ARE interpreted by flamencos. To sound important many great singers call those "fandango grande". Estela always points out they dont' use that term anymore and call them "naturales". Clearly, the personalized versions of fandango, and fandango de huelva, are kept separate from what is considered "cante jondo" which are tona, martinete, siguiriyas, Romances (precursor to solea), Solea, tientos (4/4 derivative of solea). Because Cantiñas are happy, they and the up tempo off shoots of solea family (buleria, alegria, tango etc) are called "chico". Of course they can be delivered very heavy duty if need be by maestros, so these are generalizations.
The malagueña derivatives however, unlike the fandango derivatives, are considered serious cante, but NOT cante jondo either. IMO the letras of all the cantes de la mina songs and Malagueñas etc, can be just as devastating as siguiriyas or solea. But the melodies are "prettier" so I think that is why aficionados generalize. Again, I dont' consider this cante grande chico or jondo thing very important either, rather the MUSCAL form and structure is.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 10 2013 13:39:32
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
and how did tientos derive from soleá? I never heard that before, but I guess would explain those similar melodies/progressions.
Similar yes. So similar in fact, some singers can use the exact same letra for both. All the soleas have the similar "cambio" for the ending, tangos and tientos same deal. They are distinguished by the first line of verse. Compas used to always be faster than we hear them today so it is easy to see why Tientos could have come AFTER tangos, compas wise. But structurally (melodic contours and harmonies) they are same as Solea structure. Same goes for the versions of both buleria (jaleo) and tangos from extremadura, but they have their own melody and chords a little different, but structure is the same.
SIguiriyas or alegrias are not structured this way. Nor are fandangos. Hence we can put em together in a family of songs. Trust me, I am all for keeping everything separate and labeling every thing uniquely, but as an accompanist it helps to get a blue print structure to work with so one can learn "on the job" so to speak as we encounter new variations.
I love to point out one of my favorite forms for singing was the fandango por solea. It fell out of fashion but it was so cool to take the folk song and really more than just stretch it, but force it in to the sophisticated rhythm of solea. Just because the compas is the same, it is not fair to stick that into the "solea family" of songs. THe song is simply fandango yet we keep the compas on guitar of solea. I look at tientos as a sort of "solea" in the compas of 4....if you get my drift.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 11 2013 13:27:16
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
You mean Enrique el Mellizo, the guy who performed the famous so called Levante del Mellizo de los mineros
Look bro, I felt same as you . My first encounter with Malagueñas was Mellizo style, and I would never in my right mind have been convinced that it was the same form as a taranto. Further I thought it "weird" to couple granaina and Malagueñas together, as was often done. But after many years and studying OTHER styles of malagueñas, I started to see the connection until finally I was like "damn, they are the SAME form...". Mellizo's version is beautiful and ornate, but the main form is there still. It really was listening to Chacon I think accompanied in Taranta key by Montoya that made it painful obvious the connections. And Malagueñas and Cartageneras accompanied in the granaina key.
Now a days things are more "clear" for guitar players, more codified and sadly typical I would say....at the cost of quality and quantity of cante. There is much less variation these days, the same old styles keep getting done, and many styles are simply extinct from singers repertoire. The excitement of aficionados these days is to find an "encyclopedic" amature cantaor that resurrects old cantes with love, but limited abilities. THe young talented singers don't create new levante songs....they create canciones por bulerias or tangos.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 11 2013 17:30:06
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