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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread
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gmburns
Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
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 RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
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OK, so we hammered the last one to death. Next question seems simple, and all internet searches seem to reveal the same answer except that I have seen a few different variations.
What cities make up the points of the flamenco triangle? It seems all sources I've read include Sevilla and Cadiz. Of course, most also say that Jerez is the other point, but this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me because a lot of flamenco can also be found in Malaga, Moron de la Frontera, and Grenada.
Howson suggests that it's Ronda, which could also form a nice triangle with just Jerez and Moron (which I've also read elsewhere - sorry, trying to find the source but can't at the moment - is more of a triangle of gypsies).
Of course there's the "Muslim Triangle" Cordoba, Granada, and Sevilla.
So OK, the topic here is less what the literature says is the flamenco triangle, but more what you think the flamenco triangle should be, both in terms of original and modern times, and why.
_____________________________
Greg Mason Burns - Artist
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Date Nov. 7 2013 22:17:35
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
OK, so we hammered the last one to death. Next question seems simple, and all internet searches seem to reveal the same answer except that I have seen a few different variations.
What cities make up the points of the flamenco triangle? It seems all sources I've read include Sevilla and Cadiz. Of course, most also say that Jerez is the other point, but this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me because a lot of flamenco can also be found in Malaga, Moron de la Frontera, and Grenada.
Howson suggests that it's Ronda, which could also form a nice triangle with just Jerez and Moron (which I've also read elsewhere - sorry, trying to find the source but can't at the moment - is more of a triangle of gypsies).
Of course there's the "Muslim Triangle" Cordoba, Granada, and Sevilla.
So OK, the topic here is less what the literature says is the flamenco triangle, but more what you think the flamenco triangle should be, both in terms of original and modern times, and why.
What the cante nerds are talking about is the development of the "important songs"...that being Solea, siguiriya, buleria, cantiñas. That's the "golden triangle" reference as those forms developed in Triana/sevilla, Jerez, and Cadiz. Of course the other towns or regions in Andalucia develped songs, but they are all derivative of one form, FANDANGO....those would be all the "levante" songs, sucha as malagueñas, Granadinas, Taranto, taranta etc all from the mina, ....and the mountain songs like Caña Polo Serrana, are very lyrical like levante songs but simply borrow the compas of Solea or siguiryas. So the nerds find the "core" of cante to be Solea and siguiriya (tona martinetes etc too), all found in that golden triangle.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 8 2013 17:27:57
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mezzo
quote:
Of course the other towns or regions in Andalucia develped songs, but they are all derivative of one form, FANDANGO....those would be all the "levante" songs, sucha as malagueñas, Granadinas, Taranto, taranta etc all from the mina,
Sorry to contradict the great authority here, but I think you're a little bit confuzed.
Cantes levantinos - mineros does not include Malaguena nor Granaina. At least it's the 1st time I heard this kind of mixture.
Yes it does, and they are all pretty much the same form...the melodic details distinguish. If you could reduce em all to one key on the piano it would be easier to hear I guess. The guitar gives so much color...but yes malgueñas and granainias, often coupled together, musically, are same form as the cantes de la mina. Sort of super slow and super ornate elongated versions of fandangos, that make heavy use of the flat 7 in the melody to force the guitar to answer to tonos in a "oh I just gave you the V7 chord with my voice, now YOU give me the I on the guitar", way. Fandango minero, fandango de Lucena a lot like taranto family songs. Hence, in the old days you would hear songs like Malagueña by Chacon accompanied by Montoya in Taranta key, or Cartagenera (cante de la mina) accompanied in the Granaina key.
I guess it would be better to say they evolved out of those rhythmic abandolao/verdiales/Rondeña type songs which are basically slower fandangos too, but used those nice flat 7 intervals in the melody. Only odd thing is the free style thing evolved historically first for these guys than the "fandangos naturales" more based on the huelva form of fandangos (musically simpler without all the sub dominant accidentals). I would have thought the opposite would have happened.
Now a days it's easier for nerds to keep em all separated out by keys for the guitar and such, grouped together by towns or regions etc.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 8 2013 18:40:56
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gmburns
Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
OK, so we hammered the last one to death. Next question seems simple, and all internet searches seem to reveal the same answer except that I have seen a few different variations.
What cities make up the points of the flamenco triangle? It seems all sources I've read include Sevilla and Cadiz. Of course, most also say that Jerez is the other point, but this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me because a lot of flamenco can also be found in Malaga, Moron de la Frontera, and Grenada.
Howson suggests that it's Ronda, which could also form a nice triangle with just Jerez and Moron (which I've also read elsewhere - sorry, trying to find the source but can't at the moment - is more of a triangle of gypsies).
Of course there's the "Muslim Triangle" Cordoba, Granada, and Sevilla.
So OK, the topic here is less what the literature says is the flamenco triangle, but more what you think the flamenco triangle should be, both in terms of original and modern times, and why.
What the cante nerds are talking about is the development of the "important songs"...that being Solea, siguiriya, buleria, cantiñas. That's the "golden triangle" reference as those forms developed in Triana/sevilla, Jerez, and Cadiz. Of course the other towns or regions in Andalucia develped songs, but they are all derivative of one form, FANDANGO....those would be all the "levante" songs, sucha as malagueñas, Granadinas, Taranto, taranta etc all from the mina, ....and the mountain songs like Caña Polo Serrana, are very lyrical like levante songs but simply borrow the compas of Solea or siguiryas. So the nerds find the "core" of cante to be Solea and siguiriya (tona martinetes etc too), all found in that golden triangle.
Ricardo
So I've read this, too and have a couple of follow-ups.
I've read that the Levantes comes from the Med coast and the mining communities. Are you saying a song from Cordoba is also a Levante because it doesn't come from the triangle, so to speak? Or are you saying that Levantes are a form of Fandango and Cordoba (?) and Malaga (Malaguenas - to some extent) essentially have their own variations?
And why is fandango so different from the Solearas, Bulieras, Seguiriyas, etc? Is it because fandango really comes from other forms of music and the flamenco fandangos are just adaptations of this?
_____________________________
Greg Mason Burns - Artist
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 8 2013 23:56:56
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
OK, so we hammered the last one to death. Next question seems simple, and all internet searches seem to reveal the same answer except that I have seen a few different variations.
What cities make up the points of the flamenco triangle? It seems all sources I've read include Sevilla and Cadiz. Of course, most also say that Jerez is the other point, but this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me because a lot of flamenco can also be found in Malaga, Moron de la Frontera, and Grenada.
Howson suggests that it's Ronda, which could also form a nice triangle with just Jerez and Moron (which I've also read elsewhere - sorry, trying to find the source but can't at the moment - is more of a triangle of gypsies).
Of course there's the "Muslim Triangle" Cordoba, Granada, and Sevilla.
So OK, the topic here is less what the literature says is the flamenco triangle, but more what you think the flamenco triangle should be, both in terms of original and modern times, and why.
What the cante nerds are talking about is the development of the "important songs"...that being Solea, siguiriya, buleria, cantiñas. That's the "golden triangle" reference as those forms developed in Triana/sevilla, Jerez, and Cadiz. Of course the other towns or regions in Andalucia develped songs, but they are all derivative of one form, FANDANGO....those would be all the "levante" songs, sucha as malagueñas, Granadinas, Taranto, taranta etc all from the mina, ....and the mountain songs like Caña Polo Serrana, are very lyrical like levante songs but simply borrow the compas of Solea or siguiryas. So the nerds find the "core" of cante to be Solea and siguiriya (tona martinetes etc too), all found in that golden triangle.
Ricardo
So I've read this, too and have a couple of follow-ups.
I've read that the Levantes comes from the Med coast and the mining communities. Are you saying a song from Cordoba is also a Levante because it doesn't come from the triangle, so to speak? Or are you saying that Levantes are a form of Fandango and Cordoba (?) and Malaga (Malaguenas - to some extent) essentially have their own variations?
And why is fandango so different from the Solearas, Bulieras, Seguiriyas, etc? Is it because fandango really comes from other forms of music and the flamenco fandangos are just adaptations of this?
Cordoba and Moron (for example) are considered guitar towns, so in a snobby way aficionados don't associate any special song or cante to those towns. The exceptions are songs like "Alegria de Cordoba", which is a song that borrows the compas of Alegrias but melodically has nada to do with the Cantiñas family of songs that has a simpler form or structure over which singers can mix and match and improvise letra arrangements. Alegria de Cordoba is a set song with a long letra...very different. But a nice exception.
The fandango de lucena is coming from very close to cordoba geografically, so in a sense yes it is levante from outside cordoba as it also sounds melodically more like Taranto than any fandango from huelva.
The form of fandango is very different than the form of Solea. The form of solea is very different than the form of siguiriyas. The form of Tientos is VERY similar to Solea. Tangos and bulerias too. So you can lump them together. Alegrias form very different than solea, only the compas is similar. Hard to generalize unless we get into specifics of the music and lyrics. Form of siguitirya and martinete and tona are very similar. ETc. That is how they lump things together. Sometimes aficionados use poetry of the letras to organize, but as a guitarist I prefer the music form to categorize.
Fandango in it's purest form comes from Huelva. In fact there are musicians that only perform fandangos there, and those musicians don't consider themselves "flamenco" musicians or singers. Same deal with sevillanas or rumba. So they are outside the flamenco family yet the flamenco musicians embrace those forms. Sort of like Jazz and blues. Jazz is a bigger umbrella, all jazz artists play blues....but are not BLUES musicians. Blues musicians are not Jazz musicians. Same type of distinctions.
The fandangos that evolved into free form (naturales its called) ARE considered flamenco, due to the creators of the unique melodies coming directly from flamenco singers. There is nobody on earth that can sing a good solea or siguiriyas that is NOT considered a cantaor or at least a FLAMENCO artist (cuz dancers and guitarists can sing too). So you can start to see why the golden triangle and solea/siguiriyas are so important.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 9 2013 17:34:49
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gmburns
Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
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Dubious and probably futile attempt and trying to look smart:
Cante jondo (grande?): seguiriyas, soleares, bulerias, cana, martinete, etc.
Cante grande (intermedio?): malaguenas, mineras, tarantas, tientos (? = levantes = fandangos?)
Cante chico: alegrias, boleras, bulerias (?), fandangos (?), nanas, rodena, sevillanas, tangos, etc.
fandangos, sevillanas, rumbas (where do rumbas fit above?) may or may not be flamenco depending on where you sit.
Solea and Seguiriya seem to be the "pure" forms of flamenco.
_____________________________
Greg Mason Burns - Artist
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 9 2013 19:45:30
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