Stiffness (again)

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Stiffness (again)

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Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

Stiffness (again)

Hello dear members,

For years I have been asking the same question here on the foro without any answer that would directly reply to my question.

The main question is:

What is the factor that makes a built guitar change it's string tension/makes the guitar stiffer

It's a terrible feeling getting the guitar out of the case and some times finding out that the string tension has increased by some factor that I don't know about (specially annoying when about to play a concerts). I completely loose all apetite for playing and become depressed.
It's like after you were baking a delicious cake for two hours and really really want to taste it when it's out of the oven, you discover that by accident you used salt in stead of sugar (could happen to me, both white crystal structure...).

I have analysed and analysed and analalysed...
I know my guitar likes humidity. around 53-54 (or higher) percent is good. Temperature also makes a difference.
But some times the humidity is good, temp is good and still becomes tense.

My guitar is stiff. I know that.
- But sometimes its less stiff, the sound becomes much more apealing, the strings feel nice on the fingers and thick and I can play it for hours and hours,
- and sometimes its very stiff, playability is bad, the strings feel thinner and cut in the fingers and the sound is bad (seems like there is less string vibration like the guitar stops itselfs).

I hope some one knows something. Would be very thankful for some thoughts that can help me.
Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 19:54:33

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Ever measured the string height at different "stiffness" times?

Some guitars have low action with humidity, others have high action with humidity.
That will affect the stiffnes too.

So, if you never measured it, try it, it will perhaps answer your quiestion.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 20:05:40

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Gerundino63, the action is not the causing factor. The situation remains the same with different string hight. At the moment the action is very very very low...
It's a well built guitar and I love the wood and the sweet tone, but this just demotivates

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 20:24:41

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

No, it is not the reason, but it is measurable....if the guitar is feeling stiffer, probbably the sound board is changing.
Maybe it is measurble in string height. Or the straightness from the neck. ( that is measurable too)
If the guitar only feels stiffer and there is nothing you can see or measure, there is always a possibillity it is not the guitar but it is in your hands, f.i. nervousness, bad day, stiff hands.etc.
In order to exclude this it is nice to have some facts by measuring.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 21:14:50

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Good point. I will start measuring the string hight from now on. Thanks

I also measure sometimes the ability to squeeze all the strings with my right hand when in "arpeggio position". Some times it's almost impossible to squeeze them towards the middle and it leaves marks on my fingers, other moment I can squeeze them easaly.

I can also hear the difference in sound when stiffer and when less stiff.

Could there be so much different in hand pulsacion depending on different moments? Then I should look for a squeezable Newton meter too...

Other thoughts on the causing factor for the top to behave differently? Again, I myself can't find a clear relation between stiffness and humidity level and temperature

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 21:24:10

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

When I am nervous the guitar sometimes feels vey loose.
It will rattle a lot than because I use to much pressure than.

Paco de Lucia uses a stiffer guitar when he has to perform. i red that in an interview.

I know it is a big issue for you, I remember the same topic a while ago.
If you think it will help you, you can borrow an Anders Eliasson negra from me.
You can play it a while and get your own guitar out of your system.
Maybe if you pic up your own guitar than after a while the problem is solved.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 21:38:10

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Thanks for the replies and the offer.
I also sometimes play with a sponge to reset how the guitar feels, like you said. I also have an other special for me built guitar, a negra that I some times play and has the same issue.

Difficult issue, if it's indeed just me and my physiologic/psychologic state, then what is there to do?
And what if it's indeed the guitar itself and I could have more control about the stiffness?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 21:48:32

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

Paco de Lucia uses a stiffer guitar when he has to perform.

Yeah, I always prefer a stiffer instrument when I'm performing too ;)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 22:04:18

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

If it is the guitar there is not a lot to do. Only high and low tension strings.

If it is yourself, you can focus on moments when it occures, find it out.
On holllidays I sometimes do not play for 5 days.
The guitar feels strainge to me for two days. Very "stiff" but the same happens on other guitars after 5 days so it is me, not the guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 22:08:00

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

quote:

But some times the humidity is good, temp is good and still becomes tense.

I don't think you get it man. It is not about the humidity NOW but how the guitar CHANGES because of it. High humidity means the guitar is now "drinking" the water in the air, and after some time it will sound dull. When the humidity is low the guitar goes through drying out process. too fast and the guitar cracks. From one day to another all guitars are changing all the time unless you seal them off from the environment totally. It could simply be that your guitar's normal state is "stiff" as you don't like it, but as it goes through a period of adjustment, it's when you like it most. Or vice versa.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 22:45:14

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

QUOTE:
I also have an other special for me built guitar, a negra that I some times play and has the same issue.

I would be surprised if both the guitars (I am assuming different woods) are responding exactly identically with their playability/stiffness issues but if they are, do these issues happen at exactly the same time...ie do both guitars stiffen during the same time period?
Have you other guitars which don't play up? Are the ones that do all solid tonewood and if you have others that don't, are these partly laminate instruments?
To my knowledge, laminated woods are more stable but I'm no luthier and I guess an experts opinion would be more believable .
Let's have a couple of the wonderfully talented builders opinions with this issue.... it had to be something which has a logical explanation?

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 23:04:12

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

what kind of topwood does the guitar have?

Cedar tends to like high humidity and spruce low. I suspect it's a cedar top if it plays best at 53-54. Tops bulge upward in high humidity raising the string height and perceived stiffness. At very high humidity levels all guitars sound muddy and play like logs but spruce tends to be worse than cedar. The situation reverses in low humidity if your action doesn't drop too low and get buzzy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2013 23:37:37

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

The guitar is built in certain ambient conditions with its prescribed relative humidity. When it moves outside the borders of its original place of origin, then it changes somewhat due to atmospheric anomalies and humidity.

This is something that can't be absolutely controlled 100%, but it can be dealt with according to the way the wood is treated when the guitar is being built. Most of my guitars are slightly weather proofed inside with a light coat of shellac mixed in alcohol.

This technique allows humidity to grow slower in wood and release slower when drying out.

I have seen some of the Spanish masters guitar backs cave in with low humidity, and it is mostly due to building in higher humidity without some kind of humidity control. Many of the older guitars in Spain were built in a room without dehumidifiers, and you could tell by the way their wood responded as to what season they built in.

This is the same with the Mexico builders, except for those who have installed dehumidifiers. So, to what has been said before, humidity dulls the sound and lower humidity improves it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 15:12:35

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Not only does wood take up and release water with changes in humidity and temperature--nylon does too.

My first pair of prescription glasses had nylon frames and my optometrist advised me to place them in a glass of water every night to keep them in good shape.

And nylon treble strings are clearly highly sensitive to changes in temperature. So it could be that humidity and temperature changes are contributing to the stiffness changes of your guitar due to changes in the strings.

_____________________________

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www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 17:18:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

One problem could be over humidifying while it's in the case. If your problem is one day your guitar plays good then you store it in the case then another day you open the case and play and the guitar is dull, that could be the problem. I would leave the guitar out of the case for a few days in that situation. If it is the opposite problem, then reverse it. If you normally store the guitar out on a stand or whatever and you feel it is stiff, then store it in the case more often. Depends on what you are dealing with in terms of what your guitar "likes". If it turns out it is the guitar case problem, let your case dry out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 18:18:47

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

maybe there are factors involved other than the guitar. i am sure all of us have days where our playing is better/worse than the day before yet all other factors are constant. it could be a physical issue--muscles are more tense, fingernails are a tad longer/shorter and it could be a mental/emotional issue--bad day at the office, distracted, etc. i can see the possibility of overplaying a guitar when things are not 100% and after a while the muscles, tendons and ligaments get tired.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 21:11:36

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Thanks for the imput guys.

What is there to do to manipulate the wood state at a certain moment?

The guitar is my work, its my office. I know it inside out because I work with it at least seven hrs a day.
Its correct that the moment between different weather situations (weather changes a lot here every day or even at the same day) the guitar has a sweet spot. I dont mind dull sound, but hard tension strings is the problem.
Some times it gets so tense that its not playable anymore. Then i put it for 15 mins in the case and that helps. I always leave the guitar in the case when i dont use it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2013 23:08:56

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

I think 15 min. In the case will not change anything on the guitar.......but it relaxes your hand for 15 min.

I have watched some video's from you trough your website.
Very nice music and very nice graphics too!

One thing noticed me too, you seem to be a long guy, and you rest a lot of forearm on the side of the guitar, instead your biceps.
Gould it be your hand is getting tired because of little bloodcirculation? Or nerves are pressured?

Ever thought about a arm rest at the upperbount of your guitar?
A lot of tall guys seem to have benefit from it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 10:55:57

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

There is a possibility that your guitar has gotten in between a hard and soft tension string and is finding it hard to marry a particular string tension of your choice.

Sometimes if you change back and forth with hard to softer tension it will throw the guitar top out of its equilibrium and cause all kinds of problems. The top is constantly trying to equalize its tension with certain strings that you use. Sometimes it is best not to keep changing with different string tension or string brands.

Find a particular string brand and tension the guitar likes best and stay with it. Allow the guitar top time to marry with it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 11:40:54

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to gerundino63)

gerundino63--good observation and i applaude you for your analysis. as a tall person with arms to match i often find my arm laying too heavily on the edge to get into a good flamenco hand position.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 13:24:33

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Unplayable? Really?

It has to be your own 'setup'.

For sure the guitar changes. I never notice but I don't have to play for a living.

But I've lived for extended periods in extreme humidity locations. The humidity in Dubai makes breathing like drinking soup. I used a cheapo guitar. A plank. An orange box. Humidity would have been the least of it, if I had noticed.

I have a yamaha silent guitar now. It's an actual plank but I love it. You might want to audition one. As professional you can't afford to get 'demotivated'. (And with a 4 dollar app reverb it sounds quite servicable... Golpes are about an inch and a half away. My 'a' finger is Swarzaneggered. Action is very good... for a Classical. Yamaha=decent guitar despite the volumes.) It's a big twang without some serious fx work though... And even then the sound is 'borderline') ..... However....

Get a plank. Remember when it all came easy but you had to fight for it?

I do not mean to offend in any way and please ask me to delete if this spoils the thread.

(And if you don't stand up when you play the silent yammy you have to come to an 'arrangement'. It is the perfect 'sofa guitar'. I wrapped the 'sides' in foam and duct tape.(Sno picnic but it is fun.)) But it is a bitch if you want IT to comply with you. I've heard of people customizing them... Raised and mic'd golpe area, etc. It's maybe worth a longshot before you head out the window.

I also have a beautiful luthier guitar, and I have a Ricardo Sanchis Carpio on the way. I can tape myself directly on my iphone with the Yammy. Hear how awful I still am, run it through amplitube Jimi Hendrix, hear how awful I am, then grab a proper guitar, whether it's humid or not and suddenly Ich bin Paco.

Practise on planks and play on guitars. The psychological boost isn't even psychological, it's real; it's physical.

Unless you actually are Paco. Then I apologize. A puffy shirt will suffice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2013 16:19:43

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Ok, after reading carefully all you guys messages and tips and after a lot of researching atmospherical aspects, mental and physical aspects the last three weeks I have come to a conclusion:

my guitar likes a lot of humidity

And I mean ALOT. I have a planet waves device that contains a wet sponge that you can put into the guitar when in the case

Even when its 55% or more air humidity in the room where I am, still put the humidifier inside the guitar.

When doing so the guitar gets his sweet tone back and more overtones and a "dry sustain". Also the strings feel thicker somehow.
It kind of compensates the playability by its sound qualities. It becomes more responsive and you dont have to work so hard to get a decent sound out of it.

I think that it does have to do with tension and that the left hand tenses along with the right hand. I have to do some exercises to be able to relax the left hand individually from what ever the right hand is doing.

Still kind of mysterious all, but it seems that I get more inspired playing when the sound has that sweet tone that you always here in the guitars that Barba builts (mine is not a Barba, but a higher level Bernal from 2005 called Al Alba)

here is an example: of the "sweet" sound full of overtones of the Barba guitars that i mean:
klik to listen

Man I hate that sound when the guitar sounds like a steelstring guitar..... When it sounds so harsh and boomy (like a steelstring jumbo) I also have the feeling that it plays very difficult.
So this is why I think psychologically it feels stiff/difficult to play but actually it goes parallel to the sound the guitar has at a certain moment

Now when I get it out of the case it starts maybe a bit dull because of the high hunidity it has been exposed to, but after a couple of minutes lives up.

Any thoughts about that or maybe identifications?

Cheers

Ramón

ps. Gerundiño, thanks for this advice, I became more aware of the placement of my arm on to the edge. It certainly helps. Bedankt!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 18 2013 9:47:56

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

At the moment the air humidity is at 73% and I love the sound and feel of the guitar. The timbre is much softer and sweeter.

Since I'm saturating the guitar with humidity It's a joy to play.
Yesterday's concert went great. I could put alot of feeling into playing.

Any explanation? Was the guitar build in a high humidity season or am I manipulating the wood to match my personal preferences and that maybe some one else would feel better with a different feel and sound of the same guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 12:20:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rmn

At the moment the air humidity is at 73% and I love the sound and feel of the guitar. The timbre is much softer and sweeter.

Since I'm saturating the guitar with humidity It's a joy to play.
Yesterday's concert went great. I could put alot of feeling into playing.

Any explanation? Was the guitar build in a high humidity season or am I manipulating the wood to match my personal preferences and that maybe some one else would feel better with a different feel and sound of the same guitar.

I hazard a guess that this is because the wood used to build it was not sufficiently aged. It's sort of fresh wood and happily and quickly drinking up the water and expelling it fast. So it's great now you know the problem and can deal with it...but here are some things to worry about.

1. If the guitar drys too quick it WILL crack, so you have to be super on top of the humidity issue at all times forever. Checking the guitar everyday. If you have to travel I would take a different guitar because a different environment could really be a problem. Winter months for example can really take a toll due to both the cold dry air, and the super dry heating systems used indoors.

2. The fingerboard will swell. Many guitars that dry out fast show the signs first here. The frets poke out the sides and the top develops two hair line cracks along the part of the fingerboard that extends to the soundhole. The cracks necessarily stop at the rosette. This is not a deadly problem and is super common. I used to think simply SUPER humidifiying the guitar would fix this. It sort of does make the frets smooth again and the cracks close up, BUT, on one that I did this too it cause a fret to actually pop up and cause buzzing. So If you end up with this problem too, dry neck, dont' humidify the guitar too quickly, ease it back to where you like it. Most luthiers in spain seem to prefer the neck has dried and simply get a grind stone and hack away at the edges of the neck to smooth frets. You can see evidence of that on used guitars, it's pretty sad too when you think careful humidification can restore the neck.

3. The humid environment takes a toll on the bass strings. Also mold can develop in the guitar case. So take care to stock up on extra bass strings and keep the guitar and case clean.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 13:42:57

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Thanks a lot Ricardo, I din't think at all about all there aspects of the story.

Sure are points to worry about and very good to know at this point so that I can prevent possible damage.

One thing to make clear is that I didn't put an air humidifier in the room.
It's just around 70% where I live atm. The only artificial humidification takes place when I put the guitar in its closed case with an humidifier down in the sound hole.

Thanks again for the useful advice!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 14:16:18

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Most luthiers in spain seem to prefer the neck has dried and simply get a grind stone and hack away at the edges of the neck to smooth frets. You can see evidence of that on used guitars, it's pretty sad too when you think careful humidification can restore the neck.

Ricardo,
There's a difference between curing and drying. Ebony not only takes a long time to cure but the curing time varies from one piece of wood to the next. Wood that is kept at a perfect moisture content for years before use can still shrink after some time on the guitar. There's also the problem of finding quality ebony. Flat grained fingerboards are much more prone to shrinkage in the direction that exposes fret ends or causes cracks in the top wood. Humidifying will do no good if the shrinkage is caused by curing. That's why filing the fret ends is normally a much better and more permanent solution than applying humidity.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 14:59:07

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

If you think it will help you, you can borrow an Anders Eliasson negra from me.

There are still true gentlemen walking on this planet.

Ramon,

A guitar that will still want humidification yet at 70% RH, as Ricardo said already, will likely have been built green.

I think to remember that you are in contact with the builder.
Building of green woods is a no-no; with fine shops anyway.
It is your right to request a swap with an adequately built instrument.
More even as you are playing for a living.
-

Beware of that humidifier model. Mine developed moss inside, before thrown away.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 15:11:10

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Rmn)

Glad you find out what the problem was............before it would made you mad.........

Thanks Ruphus,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 17:17:25

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to Ruphus)

a few drops of chlorine, or better yet, bromine (less smell) in a gallon of water (for you humidifying devices) should keep the mold away. bromine is good as it does not have that chlorine smell. bromine can be found at pool suppy shops (many pool people prefer bromine to chlorine) in tablets so you will have to dissolve the tablet into water. a little goes a long way.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 22:24:51

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Stiffness (again) (in reply to keith)

Bromine tablets? without odor? Interesting, because bromine is a liquid and a gas at atmospheric temperature and pressure. I remember its smell from college chemistry class. It is reddish brown.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 22:53:22