RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to keith)

Ruphus,
I certainly wouldn't doubt a guitar's sound could be marginally changed by modifying it after it was made. However, speaking for myself, this business model is ethically problematic. The guitars are misleadingly labeled. I am not a fan of using misdirection and innuendo to add $4000 to the price of a tool used to make music. Nor am I a fan of charging $4000 for a few hours of work when some people are busting their a$$es for dollars a day and lose their jobs if they ask for bathroom breaks. "Charging what the traffic can bear", that tenet of capitalism, is wrong. It's only right in the context of the free market, an artificial, divisive, exploitative, soulless construct whose pure form only exists in the dreams of the greedy. The shameless have an advantage in the marketplace, but we don't have to pretend it's okay. People just want a nice guitar from a famous luthier. Instead they're getting a maybe-nice guitar that a famous luthier polished.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2013 16:43:59

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel,
Very well stated.

Ruphus,
You just don't seem to get it.
No one here, including myself, has said that a guitar can't be improved after it's made. That has not been the point of this thread. It's the nonsensical verbage being used to hustle these instruments that's been questioned and largely proven to be false.
It's obvious to me, and I'm sure to others here as well, that these are factory guitars. They may well be very nice factory guitars but that's what they are .... with or without the Blackshear Touch.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with a good quality factory guitar. I've played hundreds of them over the years. But just call them what they are and stop the snowjob.

One person sent me an email accusing me of being anti-Blackshear.
I'm not anti-Blackshear, anti-Savage Guitars, anti-Esteve or anti-Adalid but I am anti-bullsh!t which is just what the marketing of these guitars is.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2013 17:17:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Could you sceptics kindly explain?

I am not really a "skeptic" but I think it has been discussed a lot. Factory vs Luthier. The luthier side doesn't think it possible to build a decent guitar (except by accident) if others have had a hand in parts and assembly. Luthier side believe a guitar needs to be handled entirely by one individual, and that this final product is both better and more valuable. Factory side believes this: if conde hermanos and others can pass off a factory assembled instrument for $10,000, then why can't somebody else? Meaning it's legit to have outsiders have a hand in the final product and it is still justified in quality and price if the MAIN guy approves the build and signs the label or whatever (for example, faustino's widow?

). So the name on label matters MORE than the hands that built it (in terms of price) since, of course, those hands probably make a similar instrument which sells for considerably LESS.

Case in point. Sanchis. They always made a frighteningly great instrument for very low price. The idea they can build a guitar for any other luthier, have it signed and sold at normal luthier prices is "scary" to actual luthiers championing the romantic concept of the lone individual doing it all. In the end I have heard first hand accounts that it is really about the guy that tunes the top that makes those instruments work so well. Belt sander and and toss it on the pile, next guitar please handed to maestro to tap listen and sand...enter Blackshear. As discussed he will tune any guitar for $1000, just give it to him. So that's the added fee to assembly.

_____________________________

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2013 17:55:05

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to keith)

quote:

exactly. and in the end, look what most of the real pros are using all the time. It's not always about what she wears, but what she can do.

You will find no argument against that coming from me!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2013 19:49:57

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I am absolutely with what Miguel said above.

However, as the topic was not about whether and how we could change this messed up world of exploitation and profits through hot air into one of democracy and fairness ( which you know I welcome anytime), but about a new guitar on given market that might give others of same price range a run for the money ...

I mean: What if Tom´s concept effected more than marginally? If it resulted into guitars that outperform the competition?

Would it than still matter to the consumer who and how it was produced?
If you heard that someone earned 1000 bucks by spending only little time on it.

I can say that to me it wouldn´t matter in the end while comparing to guitars that cost the same and perform inferiour.
-

And considering vagueness of manufactory:
I own an old blanca from a famous brand, which was manufactured by standardized methods regardless of individual properties of the woods.
You know, like all parts cut to certain dimensions independently of properties.
A material scarilege, isn´t it.

The brand earned its reputation through rather unrelated clues like celebrities´ showcasing etc. And thousands of buyers will have obtained heavily overpriced instruments, of which quite a number will have been duds.

Yet, some of that production have been put out as fine guitars. Like that old warhorse here. Go figure.

I belong to those who notice that indeed hand crafted guitars often display a certain quality that mass produced instruments mostly don´t have.
Yet, do I own a dirt cheap parlor that performs so lovely that you need digging up in the super expensive shelves to find an equivalent or superiour.

I am convinced that such like treating a soundboard and braces can yield significantly. And with the guitar manufactured carefully beforehand, such fine tuning might result in what I think to hear in the demo clips above, which seems quite something to my ears.

Give Tom and his partners a chance to produce as well and label as meaningfully as they can.
This mustn´t be a scam, and less even in a mixed up market with all that unclear origin and propriety as norm.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2013 21:41:14

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

I mean: What if Tom´s concept effected more than marginally? If it resulted into guitars that outperform the competition?

It could happen.
But Tom, Savage Classical Guitars and everyone else involved should drop the false and misleading marketing bullcrap and let the guitars stand on their own merits against other similarly priced instruments. The players will decide their success or failure.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2013 21:50:28

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I was thinking you guys should switch the topic to failed democracy in Egypt, China taking Tibet and or Taiwan or Palestinian-Israeli political relations and the conversation could go better and be clearer.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2013 0:00:08

FlamencoD

Posts: 113
Joined: Apr. 7 2012
From: Portland, OR

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Looks like the write-up is pretty accurate now on the Savage website. Good job clarifying and leaving no question as to the history or build of these guitars now on the write-up. I like that Rich wasn't too proud to change it. Listened to the recordings again, no doubt they sound great. Wish I could hear Ricardo play his solea por bulerias on the Blanca.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2013 7:34:53

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I don't see it as him not being too proud to change it. He and Blackshear just happened to get caught with their pants down.
That was the only reason for any changes. I still find a good bit of it to be rather hard to swallow.

He also deleted his long post in this thread where he stated that Adalid did not personally make these guitars but in the revised website sales pitch it now says that he (and his son) did make them and that accounts for the high price. But...since he's such a busy man running his "huge facility in Spain" he probably won't have time to so do in the future. Yeah, right. Gimme a freakin' break already.
C'mon people...Adalid doesn't personally make the 8 or 9 different models of guitars that have his own name and signature on the label. There are far too many of them out there for this to be even remotely possible.
Why would anyone believe that he made these?

Also the website now makes no mention of the other guy in Wisconsin (I guess he's now the one referred to as "the experienced concert player") or the magic soundboard wood that supposedly cost 300 Euros for each guitar.
At the very least, a good bullsh!tter needs to be consistent and able to keep his stories straight.

And, speaking of stories, even with the "revisions" there's still just too much of it. That always sends up a red flag for me. There's such a thing as trying too hard.

Being truthful about these guitars from the beginning would have saved all of the awkward back-pedaling, website re-writes, etc. and the principal players in this endeavor would have looked a whole lot less like a bunch of fools with questionable ethics.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2013 10:37:37

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

And, speaking of stories, even with the "revisions" there's still just too much of it. That always sends up a red flag for me. There's such a thing as trying too hard.

As of this date, Manuel and I are into the last day of my fine tuning course. It is going quite well and Manuel is a consummate gentleman with a lot of knowledge. He has agreed to help me anyway he can with my building needs. I have asked him to prefab my necks and bridges so that I don't have to spend time making them for myself. He does excellent work.

The new model is going very well and should be a highly successful model for a mid range cost. But this can be altered a little lower in cost by the woods used. We both agreed that a guitars appeal for most players is in the sound and playability, not necessarily with high cost woods.

Manuel will be at the next California NAMM show to display this model along with many other guitar styles in his building program. His Valencia factory is one of just 5 sizable factories left in Spain; his being one of the oldest, with about 38 employees.

I think Manuel and I have made a good friendship and we both agree that this should be an ongoing relationship for us. He has invited my wife and I to visit him in Spain, and I'm giving this some serious thought..... when I get physically able to make it :-)

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 14:22:10

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Tom not that you are asking for an opinion here but from a players perspective if you are marketing this guitar endeavor as a true flamenco, it needs a true flamenco action and is something you might want to discuss with Manuel for future builds. The blanca Savage has right now is more like a crossover guitar in terms of the action and bridge height. The bridge height especially leans more on the classical side.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 15:11:22

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

There's been a lot of free-market bashing here. Good luck Tom, in this interesting, and risky, venture. If this guy can employ 38 people then he knows his business.

You have an attractive and refreshing approach and I hope you've an iron-clad 'ownership' of the 'tuning' element, and a proper tracker that works after you shuffle off this mortal coil.

The 'free' market might destroy us all yet but this is an example to be lauded.

Tom can do a soft-shoe shuffle but I've yet to hear a bad word about his product. Too expensive? Well go buy a Sanchis. It's a free market. What sounds like huge markups are mostly costs. Salaries/ profits. I'm sure these guys will find a price point.

It's been mentioned here many times (often amid mirth) that you can send your sub-standard (shouldn't have bought it in the first place) guitar to him and he'll give you a price. And he'll sign it so that 60 years from now on the direct mindlink forum your grandkids can argue about who actually did the work and whether the salt content confirms Tom or his partner or nephews thereof did the dirty deed.

On lying: See all Conde-related material. Other luthiers must live too. To shove em out the door for big buckaroos needs a good story. Lone artists are not the only ones trying to survive. It is in the interest of the artist that truth and lineage and names/stories be held high. It is in the interest of a factory that they find out what the market wants to hear then shoves the guitar into their mits.

I think what Tom's partner is trying to do is hard.

Let the guitars do the talking. Let Tom lead/mislead those who believe the blarney.

But just because it is blarney does not negate the 'effect' (or 'affect'). It looks like if they can make a nice guitar, and they already have the whole chain in place, that they could occupy the space between Sanchis and Conde.

Sounds hard but I love the fine tuning stuff. I'd leave out the bits about tuning to a particular string though. And maybe the salt. Pictures of old guys in workshops with pencils behind their ears would be enough. The human touch.

Nobody wants a guitar built all by one guy that might be crap but a 'hand crafted' specimin finished with the Lost Secrts of The Ark would do for guitar center graduation to the big league. These are guitars for people who need to spend to believe.

And why not? Maybe they'll employ more people.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 15:22:38

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

I agree with your observation, and Manuel and I discussed this issue late last night. He is well aware what needs to be done with a flamenco guitar. I like the way his actions are adjusted, as the bridge style he is using can take the action very low if needed. In this sense the bridge is very universal in its concept for both classical and flamenco.

Manuel is considerate about these issues and he will apply this to the design he is building. It will depend on the raise or fall of the nut as to how the action will be adjusted, either higher or lower at the bridge, for each style.

The bridge design is capable of very low action if necessary.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 15:24:49

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

The bridge design is capable of very low action if necessary.

I don't doubt it but the bridge wood would need to be filed down where its holding the bone saddle in order to achieve from what I saw. The actual bone saddle had no more room to go lower without the strings resting on the wood itself.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 23 2013 16:06:36

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tri7/5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

The bridge design is capable of very low action if necessary.

I don't doubt it but the bridge wood would need to be filed down where its holding the bone saddle in order to achieve from what I saw. The actual bone saddle had no more room to go lower without the strings resting on the wood itself.

I'm going to alter that particular guitar bridge to fit its current needs, what ever it is, so that it will have a truer measurement for the flamenco style. My sales agent has requested that Savage Guitars sent it to me for the alteration.

Also, Manuel's new guitars are just gorgeous, as I review them in my home this week. They required very little fine tuning, and I'm very happy about that. Manuel will be taking this knowledge back to Spain and building with added understanding of the model we are currently working with.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 0:52:03

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Personally I'd rather see this production work going to a Spanish company than a Chinese company. It's basically a Spanish factory guitar that will be built with some oversight by Tom and the expert factory foreman from the Spanish factory. Whats the big deal with everyone trying to cock block them?

Southern Spain needs the business, it's just another medium tier guitar available. What's furor over? Salty advertising?

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 5:48:23

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to z6)

quote:

There's been a lot of free-market bashing here. Good luck Tom, in this interesting, and risky, venture. If this guy can employ 38 people then he knows his business.

I have not been really detail oreinted about following this and I missed the 38 employees part. Is this true?

If it is true then I think Old Salty Dedos has a good thing going. Hell if I could help make work at 38 people working ina shop in Andalucia you bet I would. They need the jobs and not to put to fine a point on it, I again say would rather see it going to Spain than China.

Stop being a of bunch of whiny pussies and give Salty Dedos a hand for doing something you're not doing: That is getting off your butts and making guitars and creating jobs for Spaniards.
Viva Espana- Viva Salty Dedos!

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 12:12:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Southern Spain needs the business, it's just another medium tier guitar available.

Stephen, thanks for your input, and Spain always needs the business.

I'm very thankful that I grew up in this business with the support of fine Spanish made guitars to teach me the finer points of building and sound. It's been a long time coming, and I have the opportunity to be able return the favor.

I don't think I have any Spanish blood in me but I believe that love and compassion for anything can work miracles to accomplish things, if we let them. This is what I love to do, and I hope it will be a help to the Spanish people.

In this universal scheme of things, I think we can all contribute our part, no matter how small, to make a better and more beautiful place for everyone.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 13:11:56

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Viva Salty Dedos!

There is an old folk-blues song entitled "Salty Dog Blues" that has been recorded by many, including Flatt & Scruggs ("Let me be your Salty Dog...."). I think we should rework it, using the same tune and melody, but entitled "Salty Dedos Blues." ("Let me caress you with my Salty Dedos....") a-one, and a-two, and a-three, take it away Stephen!

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 13:17:22

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

I'm going to alter that particular guitar bridge to fit its current needs, what ever it is, so that it will have a truer measurement for the flamenco style. My sales agent has requested that Savage Guitars sent it to me for the alteration.

Geez, if this keeps up that guitar will have accumulated enough frequent flyer miles to get Tom and the Mrs. to Spain and back.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 13:32:52

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

Geez, if this keeps up that guitar will have accumulated enough frequent flyer miles to get Tom and the Mrs. to Spain and back.

And probably get them a room at the Emperador too.

Did I ever tell you guys about the time I go lost in Valencia and mistook a brothel for a pension? It was in 1989...

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 14:22:52

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

And probably get them a room at the Emperador too.

Damn....I wish I'd thought of that one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 14:28:01

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Stephen, thanks for your input, and Spain always needs the business.

You're welcome. I admire that you're a bit north of 70 and pushing to make more guitars. It's really impressive---- As long as you let me call you Old Salty Dedos.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 14:40:42

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

And probably get them a room at the Emperador too.

Only if they ask for a standard room. The Richard Jernigan Suite would be far too expensive.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 15:09:19

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

But how does it compare to a conde?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2013 17:16:19

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

Only if they ask for a standard room. The Richard Jernigan Suite would be far too expensive.

I hear the Lincoln Bedroom is more affordable during Semana Santa.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2013 0:20:09

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I go lost in Valencia and mistook a brothel for a pension

Easily done!

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Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2013 7:43:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo)

The new model appeals more toward a Reyes style but with certain elements that make it feel like a cross-over for both classical and flamenco.

Manuel has returned to Spain, armed with added information about the fine tuning aspects for this model. He will be presenting this model at the NAMM show in California.

The new model can be adjusted more toward flamenco. It's basic components are flamenco to the core. And the tuning can be adjusted to a masculine or feminine quality. The ideal is to allow the action to support thumb and picado speed in its mid-range without suffering from string bounce.

To accomplish this, a slight amount of harmonic essence leaves the string sound and becomes more pure in its delivery, with an earthy feel to it.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2013 11:20:42

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

Stephen, thanks for your input, and Spain always needs the business.

You're welcome. I admire that you're a bit north of 70 and pushing to make more guitars. It's really impressive---- As long as you let me call you Old Salty Dedos.

Call me anything you want:-)

I have a good sense of humor but sometimes it goes right past me. But this issue has always been about helping my fellow man. I never expected to get rich building guitars. I'm sure you understand.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2013 11:27:19

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

And probably get them a room at the Emperador too.

Only if they ask for a standard room. The Richard Jernigan Suite would be far too expensive.

Cheers,

Bill

Look guys, the Emperador is at best just a mid-range hotel in a good location relative to the guitar shops. They have tried to use my name in a thinly veiled attempt to impress the unwashed masses. My lawyers have warned them to stop, or suffer the consequences.