RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: << < 3 4 [5] 6 7 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

I don't have an answer for your post except that this deal doesn't hinge on your or anyone else's remarks.

Manuel feels that he should pay me to teach him fine-tuning and I consider that wisdom on his part, as we can all learn from our peers about techniques we aren't aware of.

As far as I know, Manuel sells his less expensive guitar line to James at Zavaleta's. And if you like the product, then Manuel has accomplished his purpose.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 17:02:36

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I don't have an answer for your post except that this deal doesn't hinge on your or anyone else's remarks.

My post did not require an answer, and I certainly did not suggest, explicitly or implicitly, that the deal hinged on my (or anyone else's) remarks. I was commenting on the implicit suggestion you made that Manuel Adalid would somehow benefit from using your name and label in order to advertise his products.

He may allow your name and label to be used on guitars he makes of your design (if, in fact, the deal is consummated) in order to give you credit, which would be understandable. But he certainly is well enough known for his skills as a luthier and for his fine guitars, that he does not need your name and label in order to enhance his already well-established reputation.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 17:30:50

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

What about "Manuel's whole idea is to use my person and name to advertise the new model" do you not understand?

There is no reason for me to be pulled past this with your own ideas, as what we are doing with Manuel is very limited, at the moment, and I'm taking this one step at a time and giving information as I receive it.

Naturally, we choose to advertise this project with Manuel to connect with my fine-tuning technique. This helps both of us. And it's not for me to speak about Manuel's impression of my tuning techniques, except that he feels it's important to take a class for it.

If he didn't, then he would not have felt it necessary to visit my shop.

The September 2013 meeting should prove very interesting.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 18:29:18

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

What about "Manuel's whole idea is to use my person and name to advertise the new model" do you not understand?

Only too well. And I would be much more convinced if I heard it from Manuel himself.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 18:43:50

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

Only too well. And I would be much more convinced if I heard it from Manuel himself.

Cheers,

Bill

Nobody's stopping you. Manuel understands that I have something to contribute to the art and he's interested in learning about it. He experienced my fine tuning with two of his guitars built with my design and he was very impressed.

And for you to condescend to me, implying that I have nothing to offer Manuel's building expertise, is not only impolite but limited in understanding my building experience for the past 53 years.

You assume that Manuel needs no further education, when even Manuel Reyes has mentioned that he was constantly learning how to build better guitars. We are all with that same persuasion.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 19:26:36

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

And for you to condescend to me, implying that I have nothing to offer Manuel's building expertise, is not only impolite but limited in understanding my building experience for the past 53 years.

If you are going to paraphrase my comment, please do so accurately. I stated that Manuel Adalid is well enough known for his skills as a luthier and for his fine guitars, that he does not need your name and label in order to enhance his already well-established reputation.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 20:34:20

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

I stated that Manuel Adalid is well enough known for his skills as a luthier and for his fine guitars, that he does not need your name and label in order to enhance his already well-established reputation.

For you to make this statement does imply that you think I have nothing to offer Manuel to enhance his building practice. How do you know this?

Why would he make a reservation with my class if he didn't think it would enhance his practice?

Do you think he just likes to spend thousands of dollars jetting around the globe to see what other makers are doing, for the heck of it?

Your eloquent way of using words doesn't rise above your condescending remarks, which I think are in poor taste.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 20:59:27

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

The label will read something like:

Modelo 1 A

Tom Blackshear

Luthier

Construido por

Manuel Adalid

San Antonio.....Valencia

Ano.......

And then I'll sign my name across the label to validate it. The Blackshear label will be one label provided for each guitar built.

Manuel's whole idea is to use my person and name to advertise the new model.

This will be my last comment on the subject, as I sense this thread reaching the level of farce. The above-cited quote, taken from your earlier post, suggests a degree of self-flattery that is not often seen. In the first place, why on earth are you publicly revealing details about how you will label and sign the guitars, as well as what Manuel is going to do (Pay you a visit? Take classes? Make your guitars?), when, as you state, the deal isn't even consummated? Manuel, by the way, may have something to say about how the label will read, assuming the deal is consummated.

Serious people in the middle of negotiations don't publicly reveal that the negotiations are even taking place, much less details about how they envision the end result, unless they are attempting to impress. They certainly don't go on fora revealing it to the world! I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are flattering yourself.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 23:05:02

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are flattering yourself.

Bill, what do you do for a living?

My living is making guitars and chat lists are mainly free advertising.

Some people think it's funny to be a little controversial, as controversy sells, to some extent :-)

There are a few opinionated people on this list, some builders and some players, with aficionados on occasion. But we all try and have fun.

My understanding, as a maker is that, call me anything you want just call me :-)

No hard feelings man...I'm just letting people know how the situation is going.

And after the class, I'll be happy to share what we did, or maybe not such a good idea...

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 23:26:44

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Our civilisation is too simple and distorted to appreciate transparency.

All I know is that I can hear the perfected sonics of Tom´s guitars even in recordings and that I hope that the serial production on high level may succeed.

Even though to my understanding a price nudge somewhere between 4 and 6 grands should be rather fit for a fair treatment and benefit of all sides.
And the dealers should be made to sober and step way down from upcharge s around 100%.

Builders unite and open your own marketing and distribution ways.
Unchain yourself from grotesque proportions!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 23:55:47

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to BarkellWH)

So what if he is flattering himself? I think by now we all know that Tom likes to promote himself. It seems like you are trying to trap him into admitting something, which I find distasteful.
He is, whether you or anyone else cares to admit, a fine luthier. I have played several of his guitars through the years and they have always been first rate. I'm sure Tom has something to offer Adalid as he said. I think it would be best to take his word and leave it at that.
Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 12 2013 23:59:43

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Builders unite and open your own marketing and distribution ways.
Unchain yourself from grotesque proportions!

Please do!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2013 6:03:14

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Don Dionisio)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Dionisio

So what if he is flattering himself? I think by now we all know that Tom likes to promote himself. It seems like you are trying to trap him into admitting something, which I find distasteful.
He is, whether you or anyone else cares to admit, a fine luthier. I have played several of his guitars through the years and they have always been first rate. I'm sure Tom has something to offer Adalid as he said. I think it would be best to take his word and leave it at that.
Thanks.

Hey Don, your check is in the mail.....just kidding, but thanks for the plug.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2013 17:41:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyingsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

I just found out that the Spanish Factory that is building my design is in Valencia, and owned by Manuel Adalid. Manuel is coming to San Antonio, Texas this September to learn my fine-tuning method for his guitars, especially the design he is building for me.

I didn't think you were at liberty to disclose that per your previous statement? Also strange that you seem to be stating now that you never really knew what factory was doing it? How can one have a factory build a design yet never have known where it was coming from?

Seems like there is nothing stopping him from selling them directly from his shop at that point under a different brand if he so chose to.

Funny he (Adalid) was on my list as one of my suspects, and even my hypothetical example was Esteve shop. Good guitars but very cheap and way under blackshear guitars I have played. About Adalid in particular.... my buddy had a guitar made and sold to him with his own name typed (as in old type writer style) on the label....and it seemed pretty "stock" to me nothing "to his specifcations" about it. I was offered the same deal by the same dealer and I was like "really, just cuz you type my name on the label"...I was told frankely that I could later sell the instrument as "my model" and make a profit etc etc. So I don't see any thing strange at all with the "deal" being discussed here. It's simply about profits.

The real interesting thing will be this... what does tom's tunning REALLY change about Adalid's sound, and secondly, will Adalid truly learn the technique and be able to apply it in his factory to justify the price?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2013 18:19:02

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The real interesting thing will be this... what does tom's tuning REALLY change about Adalid's sound, and secondly, will Adalid truly learn the technique and be able to apply it in his factory to justify the price?

Ricardo, you are very astute in your reasoning about this project. All I can say, at this time, is that Manuel is scheduled to come take a fine-tuning class at my shop this September 2013.

Also, that there is a noticeable difference and change of voice with my fine tuning. Mainly a change for the better, and this is what Manuel has noticed and feels it will benefit his work.

And, as to whether he will grasp the technique fully, is not for me say but I hope for the best, and I will certainly give him my best.

Also, his guitars, for this venture, are built with better woods and higher priced tuning machines, along with high level cosmetics and French polish.

What I think about the pricing is none of my business right now but I hope them to be $10,000 quality for a mid priced pocketbook. But I can only hope...

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 13 2013 19:13:40

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

when tom blackshear didn't reveal the factory.. he gets in trouble.
when tom blackshear reveals the factory.. he gets in trouble..

can't win tom..

good luck with the new venture.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 11:39:25

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

ultimately with guitars and everything else the proof is in the pudding. it seems the cook is now gathering the ingredients. ring the dinner bell when the pudding is being served.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 12:07:22

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to HolyEvil)

Thanks guys, for the encouragement. This has been a lot of hard work back and forth so I hope it materializes soon. The effort put into this venture has been grueling on both sides, toward getting everything in order.

The first two guitars went to Savage Music in Bay Shore New York, for sale

http://savageclassical.com/shop/category/blackshear/

And the second two my sales agent is keeping for awhile to see how they develop...very nice indeed. The first two, Manuel's son built and the second two, Manuel applied his hands too.

Here's the classical sound:

http://savageclass-svgcdn.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/130803_tom_blackshear_2013_reyes_cedar_eirw.mp3

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 13:09:00

FlamencoD

Posts: 113
Joined: Apr. 7 2012
From: Portland, OR

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I still haven't decided which way I lean at this point in this venture for you Tom. I don't have any allegiance to any one builder here, as I play a Navarro Concert blanca (his Flamenco, not the Reyes) which I love. It does seem that after 53 years of building you're not getting enough compensation for your work on these guitars, or your name being used on them. I am glad you cleared the labeling up, they seem to be more accurate now with the update you shared the other day. The guitars on Savage's website look really nice, I'd love to try the blanca out.

You probably considered this, but what about an apprentice, working in your shop under your supervision? Making the main parts of the guitar, doing the heavy lifting, and you doing the lighter stuff, fine tuning, final neck shaping, finishing, etc. Seems you could sell them as a 2a guitar for continued transparency, although your customers likely want a "real" Blackshear, entirely made by you. You'd have to pay the apprentice, so that would hurt the bottom line, but maybe it would make it up with fulfilling orders/demand. Just a thought.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 13:36:07

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to FlamencoD)

I'm glad you mentioned Navarro, as just this past week-end I tried out a Marlon Navarro flamenco Blanca guitar with an old Conde style pattern to it.

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This young maker is going places. The guitar, not only played and felt like a high dollar guitar but had a nice tone. And the sickening part, is that they retail for about $900

I have written him an e-mail congratulating him on such a nice instrument. The build, the playability, and the finish are very nice. I don't even think for a minute that Marlon won't be in the major guitar hierarchy very soon.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 14:05:36

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to FlamencoD)

quote:

The guitars on Savage's website look really nice, I'd love to try the blanca out.

What I can say is that Peter Baim the flamenco guitarist and college music teacher played that guitar and thought very highly of it.

And believe me, I have thought things out and the most practical way for me to do this venture is to beg Manuel's assistance as a co-partner in the building of my design. Hiring an apprentice would be out of the question, as there are too many problems with insurance, additional taxes, etc.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 14:14:38

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 27 2013 12:24:00

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 14:17:51

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I just listened to the cedar classical and to the blanca. ( With the latters track missing some rasgueado to hear how that will do. But from what can be heard I suppose the rasgueados will trickle well.)
Wow! Congrats Tom!

Sounds to me as if the cooperation can really yield guitars with the characteristics of your make. That sounds quite like very finest serial production.

Now, only slap the resellers on their backhead and let these lovely axes reach to consumers for around 5 grands, and I bet they will go out like warm rolls.
You probably could hardly produce as much as there would be demand.
Could become best selling brand ever.

They are already getting their "sold" tags at current summs.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 14:39:26

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Now, only slap the resellers on their back-head and let these lovely axes reach to consumers for around 5 grands, and I bet they will go out like warm rolls.

I agree that $5,000 for a high quality guitar would sell like hot cakes but let's be reasonable about it. Unless we cut corners with wood quality, finish, tuning machines, and retail fees, it would be hard to get there.

However, as James Bond would say; "Never say never again."

The current factory pricing is more than you suggest, so Manuel and I will have a serious talk about the pricing when he arrives here in San Antonio this September, for a class.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 15:05:25

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

I just listened to the cedar classical and to the blanca. ( With the latters track missing some rasgueado to hear how that will do. But from what can be heard I suppose the rasgueados will trickle well.)
Wow! Congrats Tom!

I agree it would be nice to hear some true flamenco on that blanca as it's just begging to be dug into on that clip, just on the verge of wanting to growl and bite hard. Sounds very nice though just played classically so I imagine it's quite versatile and lyrical.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 15:34:29

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

Honestly I thought the original price was quite out of sorts for a factory build

I appreciate your honesty but I'm not sure what you mean by "Factory build."

Some factories are building the Bernabe' models for $10,000 plus, and any number of others are building for high dollar guitar names.

Perhaps my transparency is not appreciated due to the fact that the Spanish names also sell mystic to some degree, which reminds me of one writer in a guitar magazine who used my website to glean some of his information to write about his favorite luthier.

I don't mind this, as the information on my web is free. It's only when they use my name in the process to extol their builder without my permission, and then imply that his luthier knew some facet about the Miguel Rodriguez design that I didn't....this was totally incorrect. But then this is what makes guitar making so appealing, the mystery of the build and the duende.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 15:35:03

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

Honestly I thought the original price was quite out of sorts for a factory build

I appreciate your honesty but I'm not sure what you mean by "Factory build."

What would you call it? A shop build? An outsource build? Per you it was outsourced to the Adalid shop for building. I wasn't meaning it in a condescending way or like a giant manufacturer in China (i.e. Yamaha) built it. I consider Sanchis Lopez, Carrillo, etc. factory builds too which this is right in line with per the info given though I realize you had a hand in it in the very end.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 16:28:33

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

I see they dropped the price on the blanca.

I just talked with Rich Sayage about that guitar and he has more invested in it than what he's asking. This is somewhat to be expected due to the initial stages of bringing this new model to fruition. However.....

This guitar has my fine tuning in it along with the classical guitar he has for sale. Both of these guitars are excellent, and there are only two more with my fine-tuning that my sales agent is holding on to right at the moment.

After these 4 guitars, Manuel will be doing the fine tuning for all future guitar sales. So if you want a Blackshear personal tuning, these 4 guitars are it. Call Rich and talk with him about it.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 16:40:16

FlamencoD

Posts: 113
Joined: Apr. 7 2012
From: Portland, OR

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I listened to the Blanca mp3 and wow, very nice sounding guitar. Would like to hear it pushed a little more but man, this thing is sweet sounding. And mostly built by Manuel, so not exactly a "factory" made guitar. More like an outsourced guitar. Nice job.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 17:26:12

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

This whole ridiculous scenario is just too convoluted and bizarre to be believed.

I can't help but shake my head in amazement at the amount of naivete exhibited on this forum.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2013 17:35:12