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RE: How can I survive boredom while practising guitar exercises?
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to burnsbyrne)
I wrote: My teacher once told me that he asked Itzak Perlman this question. Mr Perlman said that he watches soccer while he practices. [/quote] This came up during a lesson when my teacher told me that he used to watch reruns of Hogan's Heros while he did scales and other exercizes before he went to bed. He was talking about exercize, not learning and perfecting pieces. I am trying to come back to playing (a second time) after breaking my left wrist years ago. I have been playing scales and arpeggio exercizes for no more than 15 minutes a day and I do practice in front of the TV. I am also re-learning some simple classical peices while I strengthen my wrist. During that the TV goes off or gets tuned out because it takes more concentration. I agree that a beginner needs to practice without distractions. Once we get to a certain level, however, the scales, arpeggios and tremolos are mostly physical exercize that do not require our full, undivided attention.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to burnsbyrne)
quote:
ORIGINAL: burnsbyrne
Once we get to a certain level, however, the scales, arpeggios and tremolos are mostly physical exercize that do not require our full, undivided attention.
Burnsbyrne I hope that you don't think I am being terribly contradictory for no reason, I honestly am not.
I kinda disagree with that statement. On any given day we may reach a level where it is safe to practice one or two elements of techniques as physical excercises on autopilot but unless you are Paco that definitely shouldn't be how you start the day. And Paco would probable stop being Paco pretty quickly if he did start every day like that.
If you are only practicing say two to three hours a day or less then you should probably aim to have as much of that as possible tightly focused and conscious. For the eight hours plus thing then you will probably need to let your mind off the hook for some of the time.
Please don't think that I am being contrary for the sake of it. Apparently Perlman (according to Nigel Kennedy) does five hours of technical work a day. I would bet that he doesn't count the time in front of the TV as practice, he is staying warm whilst letting his mind wander.
From my first post on this thread;
'Stephens advice holds for everyone at every level, you have to be involved in some kind of super conscious and self critical controlled practice if you wish to improve.'
And I think that the ordering is real important, focused work should come first. And that might be the way you are doing it anyway.
D.
@Stephen, 'and sometimes a banana is just a banana.'
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
'Stephens advice holds for everyone at every level, you have to be involved in some kind of super conscious and self critical controlled practice if you wish to improve.'
I don't speak for others of course but my experience doesn't bear you out. I almost never practice in a what you might call a "focused" way. Well over 90% of my time with a guitar is doing very repetitive exercises on an Aria travel guitar while watching TV or at the computer. I never use a metronome. On the occasions that I use a proper guitar my playing sounds, to my ears at least, pretty good (even taking into account I don't use nails). I can give good accounts of pieces such as Callejon del Luna, Fuente y Caudel, etc. Plus I've noticed that in the 10 years I've been playing I've always been continually improving - in proportion to the time spent playing.
This is not to say that I think my method is better than focused practice with metronome etc.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to hamia)
Hamia some people set both side against the middle, whereas I like to jump into the middle and be set apon.
I have experience of both ways of practicing. For a long spell I tried to only ever play with full control and understanding and awareness and I lost some things. So I let back more freeform practice and recklessness even and got some of those things back.
I guess moderation in everything, even moderation. I certainly wouldn't like to suggest that anyone who disagrees with me can't play as I have had many phases in my playing and I would disagree with that man (me) about a lot of things. And sometimes it turns out he was right.
And discipline is certainly relative. Some things which once seemed to require impossible discipline on guitar are second nature to me now. And some things, like ignoring a post, any child can manage. Yet I all to often fail.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
Squirrels move with beautiful economy of effort and arguably have no consciousness whatever.
Just a thought.
D.
I guess few can match the results i had with my "40 hour full focus recharge sessions" (rebuilding myself from scratch/reaching levels far beyond my normal capacities in less then 40 hours based on only 2 hours of full focused study a day). Still my best moments were moments were my brain was completely ignored/overruled by my subconsciousness (from 1 second to the other i had no mental and physical control over my own hands anymore who seemed to be hacked by some outer body energy force that took over control of my body). Since my brain was completely ignored/overruled at those moments my brain could have a conversation, watch the tele or play a game of chess while my fingers simultaneously played the guitar way better then i would ever be able to play it myself (often playing chords, falsetas and techniques i've never seen/heart/considered before with incredible results)
Still those rare and blessed moments did only occur in those (equally rare) periods where i did study with incredible focus on a daily base and wanted perfection so badly that i would have favored playing an open string with absolute perfection over getting 1.000.000 dollar. I believe that focus and total involvement on a daily base over a longer period of time can trigger your subconsciousness to open that window to "unlimited power". I know for a fact that many of the full focus finger/mind exercises i developed/applied in that period of time did bring me in a higher state of awareness and completely changed the nerve wiring of both my brain and body (i'm talking about extremely "simple" mantra like exercises here) .
Aside from above "duende" moments i have had a few eureka moments after studying things full focus, but i also had a few eureka moments in situations my mind had no time to monitor at all. When i drilled a couple of beats with a dancer for hours (playing index up- and down stokes only) after 2 hours of mindless accompanying (focussing on the dancer and the rhythm only) my index suddenly found a totally different way of generating/transposing energy, pairing way lesser input to way bigger output. I was never able to re-find that superior use of my index again.
I believe the brain is needed for full focus study (monitoring, evaluating, conceptualizing, guiding) but it can also be an obstruction. My subconsciousness knows how to play the guitar way way better then my brain does, but it probably needs support by a lot of full focus study to produce/maintain the correct state of mind/wiring.
I don't know how to avoid boredom. I never studied more then 1-4 hours a day. Even at conservatory level most of the time i only played when i felt like it (with matching results). The few times in my life i feld motivated to study the first hour was always spend to full focus exercises and any additional hour would included 15 minutes of warm ups. During those rare study sessions i created new exercises on a near daily base (fitting my needs or moods) and the best ones became daily routine. Funny enough, as long as i had something to improve i wasn't bored at all and i needed all my concentration to get perfection. Once i (finally) was in the right state of mind for studying i really loved the process of investigating/learning and at those moments exercises were not boring at all but one big adventure. But as soon as i was able to play it perfect time after time and there was nothing to learn/gain anymore i goth bored with it myself very soon. I simply was not willing/able to play the same pieces over and over again just to keep them perfect and in my system. So in a way boredom did indeed ended my career as a promising player, not during the learning process but time after time when i reached my goal and there was nothing to improve anymore... how stupid can one be !?.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to burnsbyrne)
my mind loves practice, on certain things, on lunch I played /practiced Mantonll {solea} from the Graf book. Im not sure exactly what the title means,,, but the playing sure is fun, esp. the 17 -28 measure,, lots of notes there, its starting to connect though, I think
Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to estebanana)
Thanks for all the answers guys! Sorry for the delay in answering. I read your posts yesterday but I only had the chance to answer now.
Yesterday I sat down watching "The Sting" (with Paul Newman) while doing exercises, but the movie was so good I had to put the guitar aside.
Some of you suggested I should practice musical exercises and pieces instead of pure technical exercises, but that's what I've been doing for the last 7 months. It works to a certain extent and it helps maintain a decent technique, but by now I realized it won't take me to the next level. I learned a dozen of good falsetas, my compás is much better, my sound has improved too, but in terms of technique and endurance I have improved almost nothing. My biggest improvement in guitar so far was when I did an average of 2 hours a day of technical exercises for a full month, during last Summer. Technical exercises is what seems to work best for me, so that's what I'm focusing on right now that I'm on vacations. Exercises for endurance and strength are also on my list, because these are probably the two things I lack the most.
About getting bored with guitar practice, perhaps I wasn't very clear on that, I think some of you didn't understand what I meant. I really love guitar and so far I've only played it for pure joy. I only pick my guitar up whenever I'm in the mood for it (which is every day basically, for a couple of hours at least) and if things start to go wrong I put it aside and call it a day. As I wrote above, lately I've only been playing falsetas and compás to entertain myself, along with some more demanding pieces as exercises. But that alone is not enough and I want to start doing a routine of technical and endurance exercises. My problem is that some of those exercises are not particular joyful and they will step on my habit of playing guitar only for passion. But I feel they are necessary, otherwise I wouldn't do them. Indeed, many of this exercises require concentration, but others don't. For example, I want to do about 1 hour of rasgueos everyday, spending 7 or 8 minutes on each type. After doing rasgueos with muted strings for 15 minutes, it is inevitable that I will get bored. Same thing with repetitive endurance and strength exercises for pulgar, picado, ligados, etc. They get boring after a while (at least for me) and one needs to keep entertained in order to keep the spirits high. That's why I posted this question, to see what you guys usualy do to help "pass the time" in this situation.
By the way, I have no intentions of becoming a musician or something like that, I just want to make a better use of the free time I have right now in order to improve my playing.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to burnsbyrne)
I am practicing technique while reading this discussion. I would recommend it for finger fitness if you need a little boost in strength. A little mindless scales session does not hurt. Just don't make it a habit.
Having said that, if you get bored doing exercises you probably are missing the point of the exercises.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)
quote:
After doing rasgueos with muted strings for 15 minutes, it is inevitable that I will get bored. Same thing with repetitive endurance and strength exercises for pulgar, picado, ligados, etc. They get boring after a while (at least for me) and one needs to keep entertained in order to keep the spirits high.
put all the exercises into compas, especially the rasgeos, so you are both practising the exercises and playing compas. That way you will not only be less bored, but you will get the benefit to your technique and musicality
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
After doing rasgueos with muted strings for 15 minutes, it is inevitable that I will get bored. Same thing with repetitive endurance and strength exercises for pulgar, picado, ligados, etc. They get boring after a while (at least for me) and one needs to keep entertained in order to keep the spirits high.
put all the exercises into compas, especially the rasgeos, so you are both practising the exercises and playing compas. That way you will not only be less bored, but you will get the benefit to your technique and musicality
Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
put all the exercises into compas, especially the rasgeos, so you are both practising the exercises and playing compas. That way you will not only be less bored, but you will get the benefit to your technique and musicality
That's a good idea, thanks Mark. I usually practise them while beating my foot or with a metronome. I will try to fit some of the stuff I practise into compás.
quote:
Having said that, if you get bored doing exercises you probably are missing the point of the exercises.
Perhaps that is the case, I don't know. This is the kind of exercises I do for rasgueos (I don't practise like on the video, of course, this is just an example):
I practise some minutes on each type of rasgueos, at various speeds, changing which finger plays on the accented beat, etc. There's not much to focus on, in my opinion. It's just a very repetitive process and once I get the hang of it, I don't need to concentrate much on what I'm doing (even if I practise with a metronome).
How can someone stay focused for one hour on this kind of stuff? I can't...
Anyways, sorry if I'm being annoying with this. I will follow your advice and see if I can make this stuff more interesting.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to burnsbyrne)
What is the point of practicing those rasgueados? You can already do them, so why practice them more? Is it because you want to IMPROVE? In that case there must be something that does not satisfy you about the way you perform them. And the only way to understand what it is is to LISTEN CLOSELY AND PAY ATTENTION. If you do that you might play these rasgueados with even tighter rhythm and more uniform sound with the same intensity of attack. But as long as the ears and mind are disconnected it's not going to happen as your fingers are free to do whatever they want without rigid control of your brain.
Find a way to have fun with these exercises. Put them to all the common harmonies in flamenco - E, A, B, F#, G#, Db, Eb and see how the feel changes. Incorporate dynamics with crescendos and diminuendos. Put accents to individual beats and keep the surrounding strums unaffected. Play dotted rhythms. Tap your foot and come in on different beats displacing this rhythmic figure in the measure. Challenge yourself!
Or you can mindlessly play it over and over hoping a miracle happens and all of a sudden you'll be able to do all these things naturally.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)
ORIGINAL: FredGuitarraOle
quote:
Some of you suggested I should practice musical exercises and pieces instead of pure technical exercises, but that's what I've been doing for the last 7 months. It works to a certain extent and it helps maintain a decent technique, but by now I realized it won't take me to the next level. .........Technical exercises is what seems to work best for me, so that's what I'm focusing on right now that I'm on vacations. Exercises for endurance and strength are also on my list, because these are probably the two things I lack the most.
I had the same problem of not getting results (despite doing normal exercises) but reached incredible results in an incredible short time when i started to study extremely small elements of playing with full focus. So on top of the usual exercises i closely studied individual fingers/part of fingers and individual motions/part of motions. My focus was to fully understand/exploit the nature of biomechanics/biodynamics (how do individual body parts work/cooperate and what are the most effective ways to generate/transpose energy). How does your finger react on string interaction, how does this interaction inflict the individual finger phalanges, the complete finger, the hand etc. and vise versa how can i generate /transpose energy the best possible way to the string in various situations. When you understand/control all the elements you will discover that a completely relaxed hand (most of the time) is the best assurance for optimal nerve response/energy generating/energy transposal, pairing minimal input to maximum output.... relaxed fingers generally also produce the best sound.
When i applied my additional micro studies for the first time they soon gave me a completely different understanding/appreciating of my body and my guitar. My main weapons were intelligent experimenting, observation, deduction, conceptualization and mental visualization...i tried to study "in my mind only" as much as possible and when i became better in it i could play complete pieces "in my mind only" as real as real can be (feeling every cell involved, the string/finger interaction, the string vibration and the sound).
The main reason for my incredible successes with those micro studies was probably that i only applied them in the very rare periods of my life that i really, really, really loved the art of studying and loved getting results more then anything else. But i'm pretty sure that my approach to give full attention to extremely small elements of playing, leaving out everything that was not part of my focus contributed a lot. Leaving out distractions mend i studied left and right hand sepparatly. For both hands i developed a series of exercises based on touching/gently pushing/holding a string halfway (without plugging the string or making full fretted contact) focussing on studying/understanding/appreciating the energy exchange between string/finger at cell level. The right hand exercises i partly published before, the unique left hand exercises i hope to reveal soon (most are based on putting a finger on string, press it halfway starting position and the fretboard, hold it there for a wile, add a little more energy, hold it again, add a little less energy, hold it again etc.). By moving/holding the string slowly between it's starting position and the fretboard for a couple of seconds/minutes you constantly challenge your brain, nerves and muscles and your body will respond by making new, specialized and very refined brain/nerve/muscle connections totally fit to meet that challenge. Another big advantage of those simple exercises and the combined mental visualization is that it works like meditation which (over a period of weeks) changes your brain and brings you in a higher state of awareness. So, while your brain starts to function better the new and refined pressure/interaction exercises trigger the production of new and very refined nerves, muscles and blood vessels in both your brain, hand and fingers and after studying 2 hours a day over a 4-6 week period you end up with a completely new and highly improved/sensible wiring.
quote:
About getting bored with guitar practice, perhaps I wasn't very clear on that, I think some of you didn't understand what I meant. For example, I want to do about 1 hour of rasgueos everyday, spending 7 or 8 minutes on each type. After doing rasgueos with muted strings for 15 minutes, it is inevitable that I will get bored. Same thing with repetitive endurance and strength exercises for pulgar, picado, ligados, etc. They get boring after a while (at least for me) and one needs to keep entertained in order to keep the spirits high. That's why I posted this question, to see what you guys usualy do to help "pass the time" in this situation.
By the way, I have no intentions of becoming a musician or something like that, I just want to make a better use of the free time I have right now in order to improve my playing.
For that reason i hardly ever spent more then 10-15 minutes to any specific exercise. But giving full attention to minute elements (leaving out everything that was not the object of my focus) the 1-2 hours i spend exercising a day were way more effective then playing scales and/or falsetas 24/7 (and at least as demanding as far as energy exchange is concerned because if you do it well studying like this is extremely exhausting but also incredible effective).
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grisha
What is the point of practicing those rasgueados? You can already do them, so why practice them more? Is it because you want to IMPROVE? In that case there must be something that does not satisfy you about the way you perform them. And the only way to understand what it is is to LISTEN CLOSELY AND PAY ATTENTION.
That totally nails it and is exactly how i approached both the micro exercises, the usual exercises and studying my repertoire. Only after i studied like that i reached incredible results in an incredible short time. And don't only listen but use ALL your censes (you have to hear, see, feel, taste and and smell it and if you pay attention really well you might even develop a higher state of awareness, opening doors to completely different dimensions).
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to burnsbyrne)
Itzak Perlman runs a music camp for kids during the summer, he switched his career to doing a great amount of teaching as well as a concert season. I bet when he teaches chamber music in the summer he does not practice for five hours, a day full of kids keeping you on point an then five hours practice? No way.
I bet he warms down by watching a bit of TV and practicing, or runs through scales just to keep them up. I think he also likes to make wise cracks about soccer and escape shows like Hogans Heros because he is handicapped.
I used to work for a guy who is a very talented violinist, a concert master of a major orchestra. He taught me a lot about the violin in terms of how violinist think and play. None of really helped the cello playing, violinists have different problems to solve but was instructive. He was a hot shot player, but he was very bitter. He said these things about various music when I asked him his opinion about them:
Paganini's caprices for violin: "Ahh, that crap, Circus music. "
Rostropovich the cellist, who was the conductor of the orchestra in DC in: "He's ok for a guy who never practices."
Perlman " He plays ok for a cripple."
I never really liked the guy and he was a bad boss. He always hired me to work for the school instrument repair season the summer when the school district instruments came for repair all summer. He always promised as soon as the school district contract was finished he would teach me violin making. As soon as the school work was done, I would ask about making violins and he would say "I never said that. " Such a nice guy.
He was right about one thing, he said don't bother playing too much technical exercises. he said find pieces that have problems and work them out slowly. Well it works better for me.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)
Richard Sennett's The Craftsman has some interesting stuff on repetition and skill development. He quotes the 'Stern rule' that "the better your technique, the longer you can rehearse without getting bored" (p. 38). This comes in the midst of a discussion of the fact that, in music practice as in all things, problem-solving must include problem-finding. Otherwise, you just solve your first problem and then plateau.
There is also a whole chapter on the hand, including a brilliant section on the relation between rhythm and concentration (pp. 171-7). Throughout this book, Sennett moves between musical examples (where he can draw on his own experience as well as the thoughts of great violinists) and examples from craft-manufacture. There's a lot of pottery and glassblowing, with a good portion of Chinese cookery and a delightful discussion of the relationship between the thumbs in jazz piano.
Did I mention that I'm a fan and I think you should all read it forthwith?
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to Brendan)
quote:
This comes in the midst of a discussion of the fact that, in music practice as in all things, problem-solving must include problem-finding. Otherwise, you just solve your first problem and then plateau.
This is excellent. You have to be able to go in and weed through the things you stumble on or have not yet developed.
I find inventing ways to problem solve to be very much fun.
Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to estebanana)
Thanks for all the extra advice guys, I really appreciate it.
It makes sense what you guys are saying. I will try to make my practise more interesting and focus as much as possible on it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grisha
LISTEN CLOSELY AND PAY ATTENTION.
Challenge yourself!
I will do so.
Also, thanks for those of you who warned me about possible injuries. I agree that 6 hours of exercises is too much time and I will probably injure myself. Maybe one day I'll do that, if I have the chance, but for now I will start slowly. I think a couple of hours of exercises every day will be more than enough (if I'm fully focused) and I will spend the remaining time I have on falsetas and compás.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)
quote:
What should I do to keep entertained while practising? What did you guys who practised for 8 hours a day used to do while practising technique and endurance exercises?
Two things:
1) If you're learning pieces of music, then why not use the technically challenging parts of those pieces for your exercises? Ideally, this would include something for all of the major techniques.
2) If you're not used to playing 6-8 hours a day, then I'd recommend slowing easing into that kind of practice regimen. I've heard too many stories of enthusiastic guys suddenly practicing more than that to which their muscles are accustomed and getting injured.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
I dont think anybody cares though. They already know it all. :)
I care Todd, I care a lot.
Lets you and I listen it some Beastie Boys and down some beers and forget these dumb ol guys.
Stephen, was that "Beastie Boys" reference a pathetic attempt to sound modern relevant to that "young'un" Todd?! I don't think they're all even alive anymore.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to burnsbyrne)
write yrself a practice song that covers those things you feel important. remember "eruption" van halen that was eddies practice warm up piece. I don't get the boredom part however, if I get unsatisfied playing a solea ill play some stone or Hendrix or john lee hooker, to spice things up and keep mentally alert. Remember boredom is a mental thing and like in any form of training the key is to mentally challenge yrself to stay fresh.
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to burnsbyrne)
Miguel, there's a Beastie Boy lyric that goes " I care a lot.......blah blah
I was seeing if Todd had the emo-cons to respond. The BB did a reunion tour last year and spot on Fresh Air with Terry Gross on NPR. I always thought they were catchy hook writers, but never really cared a lot to follow them in the 90's. I started listening to rap that was coming out of the Bronx and Harlem on cassette tapes the early 80's and it light hearted, witty, gritty and nothing ever seemed good after that.
Rap seemed to take the commercial market, but there was this other music developing at the same time called DC Go-Go that is much more interesting. But DC Go-Go is harder to play and takes a good drum set player and a scratcher working off each other. In addition to that there's an MC who raps and often a wind band. Its like flamenco in societal ways, a DC gogo concert is like cross between a juerga and a dance party. It's cool stuff, too complex to have nation wide commercial success.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to estebanana)
Stephen, nice! I agree rap took a bad turn for the worse--I guess with all that Compton, NWA, etc. When I was 12 I liked the Beastie Boys--"License to Ill" was their big record. They were a lot of fun, kind of bad boys but not bragging about being murderers or pimps. The dark, ultra-commercial (the only genre that actually talks about money in proportion to its real importantance), "ultra-id" post 80s rap is just a trip to a world and a subculture I don't want to take.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: How can I survive boredom while ... (in reply to burnsbyrne)
You shouldn’t be bored by practice in the first place. If you love the guitar, you should love practicing, because it is an integral part of the guitar.
When I was learning I practiced ten hours a day, and never once felt bored. I loved it. I still love practicing. The guitar has to be part of you – you have to truly feel it.
Here’s what Diego del Gastor said in an interview talking about guitarists and guitar: “First and foremost he must feel the guitar. If he does not feel it truly, the rest is of no avail. If he doesn’t feel it he should shoot himself or go into the Cine.”
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