Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY basic question!
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
|
 RE: Picado techniqe - Now a REALLY b... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
|
|
|
Must be the summer picado season.
The analogy with leg or arm movement is interesting. Certainly we do few movements without both joints participating.
I used to play in a very simple way, just moving my fingers back and forth. I kept my nails very short and relied on brute force and nail shape to displace the string. Fingertips were kept stiff. There was no visible middle joint movement. Unfortunately, this way did not ultimately seem right to me. It seemed to take too much force for too little result. I plateaued at a certain point and also got a chronic tendonitis in the middle joint of the m finger.
Now I touch the string, push it in toward the soundboard, and release the finger. The push seems to plainly be driven from the knuckle joint, and the release seems to be mostly middle joint. The tips are much more active, and especially m needs to relax and give somewhat to the string. The result is a stroke that feels better, smoother, and more stable.
Even though these two ways feel completely different to me, they rely on just about the same angle and for the most part look the same from the outside.
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 1 2013 6:38:13
 |
|
Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
|
|
RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to junheng)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: pink
Way to easy to over complicate things here by expecting that the correct technique will present itself to you in a very short space of time. Touch the strings, feel the guitar, enjoy the sound, the texture and just get to know it. Your hands will develop their own touch the longer you play and thus your own technique will evolve....you will read,watch,listen shout , swear ...do all the things a human is pre programmed to do whilst you learn,but be sure that if you want to play then you will learn. No right way , no wrong way. You work on bodies and as you know our bodies have the habit of being able to do some extraordinary things if we allow them to . Don't force it just listen to what your body says to you and accept. As we learn more technique then we adapt what we know naturally to get it right for ourselves.
Good luck and enjoy.
pink
That seems no good avice at all, Pink.
In a civilisation so detouched from natural being that kids suffer all kind of motoric misconception, it should be more than clear that your body will NOT tell you most ergonomical ways.
It would need certain preconditions first, and whether those suffice for something as special like guitar playing shows to be rather questionable still.
People cherrish the idea of body matters settling in by default and at best even with something like instinct for humans ( who have none ), leaving out that we are no lemur.
Relying on your body and precondidtional routines to execute guitar techniques will work out for a very small minority, and be a needlessly winded often times hard to repair road for the vast majority.
Let beginners´ questions be answered as technically profound as possible.
... Sometimes it will even help advanced players, justby remembering certain aspects while giving / reading advice on useful approach.
Ruphus
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 1 2013 9:03:27
|
|
Blondie#2
Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
|
|
RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
PdL moves it parallel although Vicente seems to push down - probably requiring more large knuckle contribution).
No, they drive the string the same way, down.
I don't think it's quite so black and white and I'd say Paco's Picado does involve some parallel movement too, more so than players who play with an extended middle joint.
I find it very hard to tell exactly what's going on in the links above, or any performance video really, due to the speed. However, check this out, I don't think anyone's posted this before-
Check out the following page from Graf Martinez website showing a slow motion close up of Paco's picado. Hover over Paco's (bottom right icon in the small pics). Watch what happens when his finger plays the 2nd string (planting on '1', stroke happens at '2') and also note how far the 3rd string is displaced parallel to the top as a result of the direction of travel of that finger too:
http://www.graf-martinez.com/flamenco-guitar/players/
IMO Its driven from the large knuckle as you say, and initially towards the top but but with a visible flexion in the middle joint that displaces the string towards the lower adjacent string also.
[Incidentally, as GM's description in his book was earlier described as 'extreme' , interesting to note that to a certain extent he agrees. His explanation for his approach (in which he says all joints have to be involved in the stroke) is below the pics, though I don't agree with all his conclusions.]
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 2 2013 8:06:19
|
|
hamia
Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
|
|
RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: D_VDER
I guess we may be talking cross-purposes, seeing as I play with a pick (did I say that out loud?). 
My point was a broader one and not confined to picado: that you get good at what you practice and if you don't practice with the tone correct first, sooner or later, you have to come back and learn it again. My view: get it right first time.
Certainly true from my point of view, but heard many times elsewhere (including my dear departed father, who was a professional classical musician).
Just my opinion.
Yes, that could be true.
I would say though that the flat hand picado method (whether middle knuckle or large knuckle) isn't one that can be (or should be) tinkered around with to change tone. And it doesn't need to be. Flamenco runs are played staccato, close to the bridge. A classical player won't be trying to emulate this! The right hand and forearm are in a straight line, the hand is flattish, you are playing close the bridge. What variables are left for varying tone? Almost none except nail shape and length. So just cut the nails as short as possible to catch the string.
And when playing slower the top of the right arm will be lower, resting on the top of the guitar (unless you are tall) and then there is more opportunity to vary the tone.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 2 2013 10:54:14
|
|
hamia
Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
|
|
RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: hamia
The right hand and forearm are in a straight line, the hand is flattish, you are playing close the bridge. What variables are left for varying tone? Almost none except nail shape and length.
Please permit me an analogy. I met Mike Tyson, he was twenty six at the time. We both used the same gloves and stood the same distance apart (toe to toe) he hit me hard !! Do you really believe that I hit back just as hard ?
A big part of the quality of the tone comes from muscular support, precision, and ,when playing runs with more than on note, the ability to relax and recover rapidly.
D.
Right. But all that is just what is involved in playing picado. And you don't build up strength and speed by worrying about tone. You do it by playing for hours and hours, small repetitive movements. And what is there in hitting a string with a bent finger that won't give good tone. The picado method I am talking about will give you good tone - because you will be hitting the string straight on (which is fine for tone), short nails (also ok), and with power (also good). So I fail to see the problem. Playing picado with a flat hand will produce tone - and more importantly it will be staccato.
You're on the ropes here I think D.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 2 2013 14:07:06
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Picado techniqe - Straight knuck... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: hamia
The right hand and forearm are in a straight line, the hand is flattish, you are playing close the bridge. What variables are left for varying tone? Almost none except nail shape and length.
Please permit me an analogy. I met Mike Tyson, he was twenty six at the time. We both used the same gloves and stood the same distance apart (toe to toe) he hit me hard !! Do you really believe that I hit back just as hard ?
A big part of the quality of the tone comes from muscular support, precision, and ,when playing runs with more than on note, the ability to relax and recover rapidly.
D.
Don't forget timing and efficiency of motion.
quote:
I find it very hard to tell exactly what's going on in the links above, or any performance video really, due to the speed. However, check this out, I don't think anyone's posted this before-
I find the vids crystal clear. The motion is the same the idea is the same, only the extension of fingers at middle joint of index tend to vary the most... a lot of just that is because of where the thumb ends up holding the hand. But the idea of pulling up the string with the middle joint is simply wrong. It happens yes, because the string hooked under the nail has no choice, but the point of the attack is down into the top, which happens more with bent fingers than with straight fingers pointed at the top which actually do pull up ward the more straight on you play.
quote:
Almost none except nail shape and length. So just cut the nails as short as possible to catch the string.
Nail shape is important too. Especially with glue or other protection involved that hardens the nail. It is not about just having em short. I can hear how a player files from picados, it is either a crisp tone or a brittle hard tone, simple as that. Manolo, Paco, Tomatito, Chicuelo, Enrique del melchor, Vicente, Gerardo, have a crisp tone due to filing across the curve. Many new guys like Diego del morao, Rey, Jesus del Rosario, Tuto, Javier Conde, have contoured to the tip type shape. Its pretty clear to me since I experimented a lot with different shapes when I was younger.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 2 2013 15:22:11
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
