RE: Question to the luthiers about saddle

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C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

I'm quite serious.
I fail to see why it would cost any more to make "your" bridges that it does for LMI to make theirs other than the fact that they're buying them in much larger quantities. I spent many years working as a high-precision machinist. There's nothing particularly difficult about making a guitar bridge. I used to knock them out in fairly short order on an old vertical milling machine without any special tooling.

It's impossible to compare measurements, etc. when you don't supply any on your website. Duh.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 19:34:41

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

i am not a luthier so maybe my eyes are not seeing luthier-ish things but the saddles appear to be similar with some minor differences (of course). are your bridges $65 for the un-adorned bridge and $100 for the adorned (with bone on the tie block) bridge. as it reads it seems for $65 one does not get a tie block. as to the height of your bridges/saddle slots, did you mean the top of the saddle slot without a saddle is 4mm above the top? so, to get the action to a flamenco level would that mean 3-5mm of saddle would be showing above the saddle slot?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 20:01:56

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

Charles, if you are saying that you could produce this bridge for what LMI gets for their bridges, or perhaps their wholesale cost, then I would like to order some from you.

Personally, I don't think you can, for the labor you would have to spend on it. Tell ya what, send me 50 bucks and I'll send a bridge for you to copy and sell it to me for, let's say, $12 each........for 25 bridges. Total $300.

Remember, you are telling this list that there's not much difference in LMI's and my bridges.

Actually, I hope you can reproduce the same bridge for a lot less money, I would buy them from you rather than spend it with my present production company.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 20:19:35

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Charles, if you are saying that you could produce this bridge for what LMI gets for their bridges, or perhaps their wholesale cost, then I would like to order some from you.

I said no such thing. All I said was that I was able to make them, for myself, fairly quickly.
Besides, I left the machine shop over ten years ago and have no intention of returning but even if I were still still there one of the last things I'd be interested in doing would be making guitar bridges.
And even if I were interested, would you really expect me to pay you $50.00 to send me something that you want me to copy? That just doesn't make any sense.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 21:49:35

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

Lowering the bridge to compensate for a forward bowed neck is absolutely the wrong approach.
Then when you go to fix it properly by replaning the fretboard, you will have to replace the bridge too.

Most excess action height development is due to body distortion rather than neck problems anyway

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 21:59:52

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

Then why does it interest you to get on this list and tell me how to make bridges or any design that you are not willing to do yourself.

The very fact that you condescend like this tells me you have little to nothing constructive to offer, and you have no idea how complicated this bridge is to build.

I have the LMI bridge to compare it with, and you seem to offer nothing but condescending remarks, that frankly, show me that you are struggling to make grand impressions but have no real understanding of the facts.

The bridges cost me money and if you want one, then pay for it. And If you don't, then that's another story.

Charles, I'm up for a good story regarding your past history but I'm not terribly interested in hearing about things that get distorted over the Internet with mental oneupmanship.

As far as I know, this is the first commercial try at this style of bridge and it is an educated style that is now available to anyone who is tired of building their own bridges. I know that I am, and I think there are quite a few builders out there who wouldn't mind having a well made Spanish style bridge to use for their guitars.

And when you say "And even if I were interested, would you really expect me to pay you $50.00 to send me something that you want me to copy? That just doesn't make any sense".

I don't think you are paying attention. I offered to pay you $300 for 25 bridges that you said you could build easy with your system that would compare to my design. A $300 return on a $50 investment seems to be a fairly good profit :-)

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 23:33:02

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

Most excess action height development is due to body distortion rather than neck problems anyway

I'm talking about 2 mm differences here, Jeff,....... be reasonable. There are many guitars that could have survived with no fingerboard work if they had a bridge that was a slight bit more versatile to lower the action. This is the whole point.

But you break the level of understanding by presenting way out conclusions that even I don't subscribe to.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 29 2013 23:41:33

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Then why does it interest you to get on this list and tell me how to make bridges or any design that you are not willing to do yourself.

The very fact that you condescend like this tells me you have little to nothing constructive to offer, and you have no idea how complicated this bridge is to build.

I have the LMI bridge to compare it with, and you seem to offer nothing but condescending remarks, that frankly, show me that you are struggling to make grand impressions but have no real understanding of the facts.

The bridges cost me money and if you want one, then pay for it. And If you don't, then that's another story.

Charles, I'm up for a good story regarding your past history but I'm not terribly interested in hearing about things that get distorted over the Internet with mental oneupmanship.

As far as I know, this is the first commercial try at this style of bridge and it is an educated style that is now available to anyone who is tired of building their own bridges. I know that I am, and I think there are quite a few builders out there who wouldn't mind having a well made Spanish style bridge to use for their guitars.

And when you say "And even if I were interested, would you really expect me to pay you $50.00 to send me something that you want me to copy? That just doesn't make any sense".

I don't think you are paying attention. I offered to pay you $300 for 25 bridges that you said you could build easy with your system that would compare to my design. A $300 return on a $50 investment seems to be a fairly good profit :-)

Huh??? What the f***???
Lighten up, old boy. No need to get your shorts in a bunch. They're just freakin' guitar bridges fergawdsakes.

And before you, of all people, say that anyone has nothing constructive to offer or of being condescending you should go back and read a few of your own posts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 0:12:39

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

Many times I have had a guitar (with adjustable truss rod) come to me with high action, low saddle and the owner complaining of buzzing above the 9th fret.
Examination almost inevitably shows excess relief (bowing) in the neck
The solution is to straighten the neck and then raise the saddle to give good action and a buzz free upper register.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 0:56:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

They're just freakin' guitar bridges

I understand that you care nothing for my presence on any chat list, and that you seem to always want to pick a fight. You seem to carry it further than just a casual entrance into another person's presentation of his craft

You have to be a competitor, even without justification concerning a simple presentation of another builder's craft, and then you expect me to roll over and acquiesce to your competitive criticism. It seems that you nearly never have a kind work to say.

And when I call you on your ignorance concerning the bridge issue, you dummy up and can't think of anything to say.

What's wrong, Charles? Be at peace man, don't let it control your life.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 2:09:55

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

Not to muddy the waters but I do have to point something out here.

A 300 dollar profit on 50 dollar investment is indeed a very fine return. However that is hardly the case in what you are proposing Tom. There is an investment of capital but there is even more of an investment in time and materials, which is to say that Charles will see a monetary profit of 250 dollars to churn out 25 bridges of your design. He also has to pay upfront for the template that you wish him to copy.

I admit that I don't have an MBA but in my 22 years experience as a self employed businessman....I don't blame him for passing.

Just my two cents.

A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 2:18:49

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

Tom,
From what I can see, your only reason for getting into this thread was to hustle some overpriced bridges. Self-serving as usual. I will, however, give you points for consistency.
I'd like to know just what is so special about these bridges....other than the fact that you are selling them. We all know that automatically makes them special.

How 'bout it, Tom? You talk about offering something constructive. How about something from you that's actually useful for a change? Why are your bridges so much better and/or more versatile than those that LMI is selling? What are the differences?
You say that you have one of the LMI bridges. How about some comparative measurements? Some good side-by side photos would be nice, too.
Or are you just blowing smoke as usual?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 2:26:22

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

I always hate to hijack a thread with my personal questions but I thought with this one that no one would mind, it already seems to be a mite off topic. Charles I would like to contact you by email but I can't find a contact. Would you drop me a line please, you can find my address on my webpage http://www.johnguitar.com

thank you

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John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 7:34:05

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

you guys now sound more like bankers than luthiers.

investment on capital....offer.....$$$ here....$$$ there....i buy this,,,, you sell that...competitor...profit...

WTF !!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 9:19:16

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

I was on the verge of asking Charles to make bridges for me, but he does not want to go anywhere near a shop.
Wise man.

I made run of a dozen bridges once, I used them up pretty fast. But what I would really like is for some shop hot shot to show me how to make them faster myself. It takes me about four hours to make a bridge from blank to high polish. I feel it's too slow.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 9:43:49

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

investment on capital....offer.....$$$ here....$$$ there....i buy this,,,, you sell that...competitor...profit...

WTF !!!

We have to eat too, sawdust is not as nutritious as it smells.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 9:45:02

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

Por orto parte, the value in Toms bridges is not the cost at 65.00 per unit. The value for a pro is in saving money by calculating how much time you would have to pay yourself to get a bridge to the same level of finish.

If I paid myself 80.00 per hour to make my bridges and Tom's bridge is almost done sans tie block cover, and it takes me two hours to get bridge to that point..Tom's bridge looks attractive.

But my question is not the about dimensions or whether you can get the strings to hang inside the soundhole with minus four mm action, or stand up like six antennae.

The question is, how much does it weigh?

Honestly it looks better than the LMI bridge. And the LMI bridge looks too tall in the tie block to be a svelte high performance flamenco bridge. But 60.00 bucks..hmm that's a bit of change for a bridge. Make them 40.00 and ship overseas and I'd buy a few to try.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 10:07:05

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Por orto parte, the value in Toms bridges is not the cost at 65.00 per unit. The value for a pro is in saving money by calculating how much time you would have to pay yourself to get a bridge to the same level of finish.

Very wise words indeed. It takes me about 2.5 hours to make a bridge and at 75 per hour shop time, it amounts to $187.50, and I have to say that this is one big reason I thought to have them made. I already have a jig to do Miguel Rodriguez bridges but the Reyes style was a wash out on my previous set up.

This new bridge style takes care of both with very little alteration for the Rodriguez style. And due to the size and shape of this new bridge, it can be easily altered to fit other bridge styles.

And about the weight, I don't have a scale but the LMI bridge is noticeably more in weight, and the LMI bridge's bottom is cut flat not curved and this adds weight to a bridge that is finished with lacquer and has to be altered for a domed top. All of my bridges come with a slight curve.

And about the cost, the price comes down for 10 or more in a quantity purchase. And anyone interested can contact me at tguitars@texas.net

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 12:09:03

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

A 300 dollar profit on 50 dollar investment is indeed a very fine return. However that is hardly the case in what you are proposing Tom.

Aaron, Charles was under no pressure to make this deal. And I think you forgot something. With an ongoing supply of these bridges that Charles could make, there are myriad professionals that could potentially order from him, yourself included. I know that I would be a regular customer of his, at a lower price than I'm having to pay now.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 12:27:01

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Not the same as an "investment". Call me picky but you are offering him a job. It would be like me telling you that when you build a guitar you realize (based on what your price is) an astronomical return on your investment in the price of materials. There is this thing called "work" that moves this scenario into something other than an "investment". By it's nature the investment itself is what generates a loss or return. If I buy a painting at a yard sale for 5 dollars and it turns out to be a Jackson Pollack (like this lady I saw on TV did) then I would realize a $24,999,995.00 increase in my 5 dollar investment. But the only work along the way was taking it home and sticking it up on my wall.

And yes Arash, we are all entrepreneurs in spite of ourselves. Goes with the turf of self employment. Ugly, I admit, but true.

Back to the bridge thing, Stephen got it right that we all put in way more than 60 dollars worth of work to create a bridge. There is something to consider though, what makes a bridge ideal for a particular guitar goes well beyond the physical dimensions. I have at this point more bridge blanks than guitars I could ever build. I also have a friend with a CNC who has offered to take a finished bridge and then map it out and blast out as many bridges as I want. The attractiveness of this, for me, is the ability to choose, based on weight and stiffness, the perfect bridge for each guitar. But in the end, I would want my own bridge design and I have more faith in my materials than in what would be used in mass produced bridges to be honest. CNC technology is getting cheaper and cheaper and people with CNCs are not hard to find.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 12:41:26

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

CNC technology is getting cheaper and cheaper and people with CNCs are not hard to find.

Tell ya what, Aaron, you get back with me when you decide to do what I've already done, and we'll compare notes. And if your man is as good with his CNC as my bridges are, and can do it at a cheaper price then I'm open to buying from him.

And I might add that these bridges were thought out to be a compliment for the Reyes plan I drew for the Guild of American luthiers.

You should buy one of mine just to see the differences.... wouldn't hurt

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 13:39:23

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

it would not surprize me the bridges sold at lmi were made in china and if so then lmi would have a significant advantage when selling them to the public.

tom, i am still a little puzzled here. you say your bridge (i am assuming the saddle slot) is 4 mm above the soundboard at the bridge. if that is correct then it seems you would need 3-5mm of saddle showing to get the string height to 7-9mm above the top (the preferred flamenco height). or are you stating the string height is 4mm coming off the saddle?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 13:50:35

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

Not the same as an "investment". Call me picky but you are offering him a job. It would be like me telling you that when you build a guitar you realize (based on what your price is) an astronomical return on your investment in the price of materials. There is this thing called "work" that moves this scenario into something other than an "investment".

Aaron, you are forgetting what Charles has implied. It would be easy for him to build bridges at a lower price than my bridges but by the time everything is done, the mark up has to be such that he is able to make a living with them.

So, in a way, you are confirming my thoughts about the cost. I know that I would be willing to pay certain fees, not to have to build my own bridges, and this is what I've done, with much planning and hard work, to realize a consistent quality bridge that would fit most Spanish styled guitars.

And you are free to decide what type you like but if any bridge were a tiny fraction off, in its weight, then I always fine tune the voice after the bridge is on the guitar.

Fine tuning the voice is what I do. And most guitars never come out the same way with top to strut mass, without tweaking their potential synergy to get at the perfect tone.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 14:01:47

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

And I might add that these bridges were thought out to be a compliment for the Reyes plan I drew for the Guild of American luthiers.

I figured it was just a matter of time before it came out...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 14:11:46

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to keith)

quote:

tom, i am still a little puzzled here. you say your bridge (i am assuming the saddle slot) is 4 mm above the soundboard at the bridge.

The bottom of the saddle slot is about 2 mm above the bottom of the bridge. However, its top portion is about 6.5 mm which can be carved down to a lower action if needed.

The tie block length is about 83 mm.

The tie block width is about 13 mm.

The tie block height is 8 mm slanted down toward the front of the bridge and can be cut down to house the string holes comfortably.

The bridge length is 188 mm and the width is 30 mm. The curve on the bottom of the bridge is not quite 1 mm at its center. The bridge arms should be about 4 mm thick or a little less.

All of these measurements can be altered down to fit smaller bridge styles, and with a lot less effort than having to build your own.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 14:29:33

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Aaron, you are forgetting what Charles has implied. It would be easy for him to build bridges at a lower price than my bridges but by the time everything is done, the mark up has to be such that he is able to make a living with them.

Tom,
I know that I might as well be talking to a turnip but in my own defense I have to say that I never implied anything of the kind nor did I ever suggest that I had any interest whatsoever in making bridges for you or anyone else at any price.
End of story.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 14:50:12

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

Tom,
I know that I might as well be talking to a turnip but in my own defense I have to say that I never implied anything of the kind

Charles, when you said

quote:

From what I can see, your only reason for getting into this thread was to hustle some overpriced bridges.

You put out the challenge that you knew how to do it better, and believe me, if you can, then I would do some business with you.

Otherwise, please don't come here and criticize me for doing my work, unless you can do it better for less money. And your condescending attitude is far from most of this list's members. SOMEBODY GET A BAR OF SOAP!!

Hang on Charles, I haven't reached my second childhood yet but I'm catching up with you as fast as I can

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 15:05:13

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

between bridges, rosettes and possibly soon to be announced sea salt from the dead sea for sale the luthier section is beginning to look like a version of e-bay. maybe we should call it t-bay?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 16:54:46

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to keith)

Good one or ego-bay!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 17:29:26

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

There is this thing called "work" that moves this scenario into something other than an "investment". By it's nature the investment itself is what generates a loss or return.

I'm sure you meant that many things we put out are an investment, of energy, time, and economy, etc. I invest my time to come here and chat, and so far it is worth my time, but I understand that not all investments pan out. This is the risk we all take when we invest in our calling.

Or perhaps you would choose to call it a sacrifice of your time to come here and display your art. Either way we hope for a return on what we give to others in the form of live chat or entertainment on occasion.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 19:34:23