RE: Question to the luthiers about saddle

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aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to C. Vega)

Tom
My involvement in this discussion was not to confirm or deny the economics of buying premade bridges. Except to point out that I prefer to have my own design, choose from my own materials and ironically enough, I had an offer recently to get a ton of them made up for me by someone with a CNC who also knows how to run it. My intended point was to illustrate that there is value in having a lot of bridges to pick from. Which could be a point in your favor for someone without literally thousands of bridge blanks or access to a CNC or router jigs like what I use now. I have absolutely no interest in marketing guitar parts to other luthiers. Happy for you to do so though and wish you the best.

Now that you have also put forth your dimensions, I can tell you I would not be happy with a bridge like you describe. Others might be perfectly happy but it's very different than what I am doing and not in any way that makes me think of it as an improvement. Different strokes as it were.

In terms of semantics, you can consider whatever you like an investment. Some might agree with you, some might not, thats how it goes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 21:36:10

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to aarongreen)

Aaron, I like to invest in peace and life and this entails not arguing with others on a moot point.

I understand you are your own man and like to do things your way....but

For example: If you are building a Barbero style flamenco guitar then my bridge can be altered to fit its design with ease. All that needs to be done is shorten the arms a little and slightly trim the edges length wise to accommodate its width. The tie block on my 1951 Barbero pattern is exactly the same width and length, as the new design.

I'm not trying to talk you into anything but to show this list the new bridge's versatility with other bridge designs. And if you wanted to trim down the bridge height, tape the bridge to a block of wood and run it up against a sander, either on an angle to slant the tie block and saddle slot or straight up against it.

Easy stuff, and you are home with another design.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2013 22:53:05

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to aarongreen)

Here is the next thing to consider if you are a pro:

Once you calculate how much it costs to buy a CNC bridge vs. how much you have to pay yourself to make a bridge you come up with that amount you save by buying labor.

If you were a contractor remodeling kitchens and bath rooms it might be a good practice to sub out some work or all of it. That is contracting out work.

The next thing to consider as a pro hand builder is whether the extra two hours that saves you $120.00 bucks is beneficial to your reputation and most importantly the instrument itself. So to go full circle, making a bridge takes time, using a premade bridge saves time and some money, but is the cost in labor savings really worth it over the entire lifetime of a fine instrument?

If you want the instruments you make to last for 25, 50, 100, 200 years if it is taken care of, what is the big deal about two more hours of work that you really do get paid for? Using a premade bridge in the bigger picture saves you some lunch money, and is a way to save your body from some extra wear and tear. I'll admit it looks attractive to think about grabbing a bridge already made when you are tired at the end of the day, but you can always rest and come the next day fresh and make a bridge.

All this is not really about comparing money for this or that, it's about comparing convenience vs. your own labor + detail of making each bridge specific to each guitar.
So it takes longer to make a bridge that is specifically made for each guitar, in the end is that a better value than a one size fits all which will probably work? I say making each bridge custom is a better value because only you can make your own bridge.

The argument is whether a mass produced object has more overall value than a hand made object. The mass produced object may have more monetary value, but making a bridge may create an object that you can charge more for. If you charge $80.00 per hour to make a bridge, lets say, and you finally spend five hours from blank to French polish you just created five hours of work for yourself which you'll get paid full price for.

There is nothing wrong with honest pay for an honest days work. There is nothing wrong with using premade parts as long as you are realistic about the difference between a unique one of a kind object and a mass produced object. In the end the customer decides which they want to spend money on.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 1:37:40

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to aarongreen)

My point Stephen was exactly that even within a very tightly controlled and specific design, the wood, the individual piece of wood, has an enormous impact on the mechanical properties of the bridge. My own bridge shaping jig is a swing arm on a router table, it gets my wings to within .2mm of what I consider to be my "all else being equal even though it never is" ideal thickness. There is still a lot of work to do but the closer you get to the finished product, the more you can tell about how it's going to behave. Therefore having a number of bridges to pick from is really a better way to go. The weight and stiffness have to work with how the top works, sometimes you want stiffer, lighter, heavier, more flexible.....on down the line. I can not for the life of me always tell if a bridge blank is going to make the most appropriate bridge (by my standards and expectations) for whatever guitar I am making. I have tons of old Brazilian bridge blanks and lumber well suited for bridges, Brazilian, Indian, Madagascar, Honduran etc. and I'd love to utilize all of it, even if it's to pass the majority of it up until the right guitar comes around. The closer it is to being ready to be prepped for finish, the more I can tell about it and whether or not it is ideal for x guitar.

One thing you find, or I have found, in having 50 bridge blanks with the arms carved is how much more picky I have become when picking out the bridges for each guitar. If my CNC guy could get even closer to final (and they never get you all the way) then I can have even more bridges to pick from and that excites me. I spend a whole lot of time on the aesthetics of my work and how the overall guitar is a handmade expression of who I am and what I believe in as a builder....but this is one area where I can see real benefit in some production engineering.

I just am not interested in a bridge of the dimensions Tom is creating nor do I think LMI has access to better bridge stock than I do. Quite sure about that actually.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 1:59:15

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen, you bring up good points and the satisfaction is really in the power to choose what you want. I have a need to buy my bridges as I want all of them the same, from one bridge to the other; basically the same weight and arguably the same style in appearance, without having to struggle with it.

I feel the same with heads, heels, and necks, but right now I struggle through it by my own hands. I did some marketing research on this and so far, there are quite a few hobbyists that like this idea. I used to make my own rosettes but I decided to have adequate designs made up so that I could spend the extra time on fine tuning the voice.

I think the pay back was definitely worth it. So, I'm not opposed to having parts made for me, as the end result is going to be my art in the finished product of how the guitar plays and how it sounds.

But I understand that there are builders who choose to have their hands on every part of their work. I did for 50 years but now its time to concentrate on doing what I have to, toward making things work better for my shop.

This has been a nice discussion, thank you...

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 2:10:31

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to aarongreen)

My crap arrived in Japan a few days ago. I'm about to unpack today and begin moving into my new work space. I have a fixture which I use for rough routing out bridge blanks, if I remembered to bring it I'll photograph it and share it. If I tossed it I'll have to make a new one. In any case I'll be working up a new system for making my bridge blanks, I if did have room to ship that fixture it was getting pretty worn out.

I work pretty much like Aaron, I make a box of blanks usually I have ten or more to pick from, then I whittle them down, weigh them and come up with a final three from which I select a bridge according to how mechanically flexible the top is and the bracing etc. A lot of that selection process and final thinning comes from a kind of unspoken intelligence you acquire, difficult to talk about in total. But if anyone want s to share insighs about bridge whittling and blank making I'd be interested.

One thing I've figured out is that I have not figured it all out.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 2:45:19

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

A lot of that selection process and final thinning comes from a kind of unspoken intelligence you acquire, difficult to talk about in total. But if anyone want s to share insights about bridge whittling and blank making I'd be interested.

I still haven't figured out how to show my stuff on this forum, my wife has to help me. I have a shaper and router set up that I can show if she has the time to help.

The reason I've settled into pre-made bridges is that I don't have to worry about the slight differences in the top's changing tonal characteristics. I set my top's key tuning with a medium stiff piece of top wood and then apply the bridge to the top and this brings down the key to a certain level, then I fine tune the rest, if needed. The final tuning really helps, as it is the technique that brings everything concerning tone, equilibrium, articulation for right and left hand; toward being perfectly balanced.

The guitar has to feel right when you play it, and the fine-tuning technique brings everything together, in-spite of any microscopic differences in wood density. This is why I can use a commercial built bridge with the same cosmetic appearance, and still have a good working instrument. This is all achievable because there is so little difference in the wood that is used for my work. I stay with certain wood types and fine tune the rest.

But I understand this way of building is not subscribed to by everyone.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 11:08:19

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Question to the luthiers about s... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

But I understand that there are builders who choose to have their hands on every part of their work.

........ These words remind me of a dear MASTER in my city that built wood artistic furniture until the age of 93!!. Builders of art increasingly rare.

thanks

ciao
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 13:11:47