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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

Tremolo and nail length? 
In recent years, I find I really enjoy playing tremolo falsetas.

And for many more years I've been trying to play a decent, smooth tremolo - consistently. . .

Some days it sounds sort of not too bad, but more often than not it sounds @#$$ing awful; ragged, erratic and not very musical. Very frustrating. Frequently I just give up trying.

Then I began to wonder if it had something to do with my nails, which constantly get damaged or broken when working on the farm. So I rarely have a consistent nail length for more than a week or so.

I was wondering if the fact that I frequently have to repair my nails had something to do with my tremolo problems. In other words, if I could maintain the same nail length consistently, would my tremolo improve.

I haven't yet been able to figure out if I'd play a more consistent tremolo with short nails (barely reaching the end of the fingertip) or longer nails, maybe 1/32 inch or more over the fingertip?

I seem to play smother arpeggios with shorter nails, but maybe tremolo is something quite different.

Are longer nails better for tremolo, or does it not matter?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 22:22:11

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
Longer or shorter is a personal preference.

But consistency in nail length is a must in my opinion.

Otherwise you never really calibrate.

Once you really start to perfect your technique, you can have
nail problems from time to time and its not a big deal.

But when you are in the middle of forming your technical habits,
its not good. You want to try to maintain them day to day as
much as possible.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 23:28:51
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
longer nails are better for breaking!

in your case probably better to go for shorter nails, and keep them a consistent length.

i keep mine short-ish and consistent length. the regular filing keeps the nail edges smooth too, which helps avoid catching on things and tearing.

cover them with super glue too, i'm always breaking or cracking the glue, but it seems to protect the nail underneath, so the glue cracks or breaks but the nails don't. i do have pretty tough nails though.

and do you wear work gloves?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 23:29:38
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
It is indeed a personal preference (as well as depending on your personal situation). For me the golden combination was:

* very short nails (just long enough to grab a string without being visible behind the string.... so basically 1 string thickness long)
* extremely relaxed fingers (although i also had good results with forceful clawing as well)
* high quality (tremolo) exercises on a daily base (or having a good day)

I needed the very short nails in order not to get stuck into the strings when playing "totally relaxed and without force" and i needed the daily practice to be able to play like that in the first place..... when i don't study on a daily base i miss the required control to hit the string with absolute precision (and as a result need longer nails to ensure string/nail contact) and when i do study on a daily base "the overnight nail grow" have to be removed on a daily base to enable that relaxed way of playing (every molecule of nail visible behind the string is ballast that needs additional energy to be handled.... just like every gram adds to the wight when carrying luggage over a longer period of time).

Playing tremolo or arpeggio to me was very much the same (just a matter of (re)arranging the best possible hand position for any given situation)....if i remember well the only situation were shorter nails didn't gave optimum results to me was when playing rasguedo...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 23:45:37
 
Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

* very short nails (just long enough to grab a string without being visible behind the string.... so basically 1 string thickness long)
* extremely relaxed fingers (although i also had good results with forceful clawing as well)
* high quality (tremolo) exercises on a daily base (or having a good day)


I think Erik summed it up nicely.

Apart from the fact that you should find out the right nail length and shape suitable for most techniques (this is a tough one), I think to do a good Tremolo or basically any other technique, one needs daily excercises, consistently.

One good way of practicing different techniques every day is to make arrangments of pieces which comprise different techniques. For instance a Solea that has rasgueado, picado, tremolo, alzapua, etc.

A

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 9:34:46
 
Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
Also, I’ve learned from my teacher a gradual but effective way of building up a nice and smooth Tremolo which may be useful to you and others here:
Note: the exercise can be done across different strings (i.e P doing 6,5,4 and the fingers doing 1,2,3)

1. For a few days do Pi ONLY until you can do it nice, smoothly and fast enough.
2. Next few days Pmi ONLY until you can do it nice, smoothly and fast enough.
3. Next few days Pami ONLY until you can do it nice, smoothly and fast enough.
4. Then you can add i and do Piami


Good luck.
A

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 10:18:54
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
i wonder if someone will do an analysis of hand structure, specificially d2 d4 ratio, and tie it to doing a tremelo. it seems logical, all other things considered equal, that if d2 (index finder) and d4 (ring finger) are closer to the same length the easier it should be to do a tremelo (at least a good tremelo). if there is a conclusive correlation it would definitely inspire some related questions regarding tremelo and male issues.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 17:05:08
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to keith) 
quote:

if there is a conclusive correlation it would definitely inspire some related questions regarding tremelo and male issues.


Male issues?

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 17:27:08
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to BarkellWH) 
there is research suggesting a longer d4 to d2 may be tied to a length advantage elsewhere--i think you can figure this one out-- and a shorter d4 to d2 may be correlated to a reduced risk for prostate cancer and baldness.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 17:34:14
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to keith) 
quote:

i wonder if someone will do an analysis of hand structure, specificially d2 d4 ratio, and tie it to doing a tremelo. it seems logical, all other things considered equal, that if d2 (index finder) and d4 (ring finger) are closer to the same length the easier it should be to do a tremelo (at least a good tremelo).


the joints (3) in the fingers are perfectly suited to compensating for variations in actual length of fingers when held straight.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 18:38:27
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to keith) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

i wonder if someone will do an analysis of hand structure, specificially d2 d4 ratio, and tie it to doing a tremelo.


I did.... somewhere on the foro.

My daily tremolo exercises always started with focusing on that issue....again and again and again.

My very first action of the day (that fits both the question of hand position, finger position and the perfect tuning of the nails) would involve placing the nails of the 3 contributing fingers (i,m,a) side by side on 1 string SIMULTANEOUSLY.... just hook all 3 nails to the same string at the same moment. Then plug the string using all 3 fingers at the same time (like it is 1 giant finger)....replace....and do it again....and again...and again.....

* It will give you a perfect start to explore perfect finger line up/hand position.
* It will show you how to bow/curve your fingers to level the length difference
* It will show you when an individual nail is to long/short in relation to the other fingers and enables you to calibrate them to each other.

When you place a relaxed finger on a string (grabbing it with the nail) and SLOWLY add/increase pressure on that finger/nail/string there idealistically will be a moment that finger slides of, plugging the string in the process. Both the placement/relaxation AND the nail length of that finger influence the amount of energy needed to reach that point. To play a fluent tremolo the relaxation and the nail length of each individual finger must be exactly tuned to the other fingers.

If you apply "the same amount of energy on 3 equally placed/relaxed fingers on the same moment of time" they idealistically must have the same development in movement....and as such the same moment of string release... but ONLY when also the length of the nails are calibrated to the other fingers.

So in above line up (3 fingers plugging 1 string as 1 giant finger with equal energy input) if a particular finger (structurally) slides of before the other 2 (false start) it's nail is relatively short compared to the others.... and if a particular finger stays behind its nail is relatively long compared to the other nails. Only if you calibrate the nails of your fingers to the other ones (ensuring equal string release with equal energy inputs) you can expect a tremolo to come out fluently (unless you want to compensate unbalanced nail length with unbalanced energy inputs).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 19:01:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
nail shape is more important than length.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 20:56:55
 
gbv1158

 

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

nail shape is more important than length.


I agree 100%

ciao
giambattista
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 21:04:59
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

nail shape is more important than length.


I've heard this before. But never understood the 'how' and 'why'.

Can you give example(s)?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2013 11:39:20
 
etta

 

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
My tremolo is very unorthodox. I use only the "i" and the "a". I devised this method many, many years ago when I had no access to instruction but the LP's I listened to. I reasoned that my i and a were the same length, unlike my much longer middle. So away I went with a very incorrect method. It does work for me and allows me to get inside to other strings besides the "e" much more easily. An unacceptable to most for sure. I try to keep my nails 1 mm past the tip of each finger. Shorter or longer makes the tremolo difficult.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2013 14:48:45
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

quote:

nail shape is more important than length.


I've heard this before. But never understood the 'how' and 'why'.

Can you give example(s)?



You want your nails to make optimal contact with the string and for that they need to have a certain length and shape. What that optimal length and shape is depends on your nail characteristics and your playing style. It's not hard to imagine that for instance a triangle shape is not the best shape for playing the guitar.

If you look at your nails from above you can see the optical color difference between the optically flesh-colored part of the nail that is still connected with the skin (nail plate) and the optically white/grey colored part of the nail that is already free to air (free edge that is available for plugging the string). Where one becomes the other (the so called distal edge of the plate) one can see the same round shape as your finger tips.

In most cases your filed nails will more or less copy the round shape of your fingertips and the distal edge of your nail plate, but those are not the main parameters for optimal shaping.... optimal contact and playability is.... you have to fine tune that shape to your exact likings. If you flatten the round shape a little bid you can create a wider area of nail/string contact which can be nice....for a certain way/angle of plugging. But since different techniques and/or sound effects demands different ways/angles of plugging the final shape must be agreeable for all those situations. What is optimal for one situation can be a pain in the ass for an other situation. So in most cases you will file it a little shorter around the (ultimate) corners, allowing you to select various options and gradations of nail/string contact.

I already mentioned playing style. The way you hold/use your thump for instance strongly influences the optimal shape of your thump nail... if for instance you favor to file your thump-nail parallel to the string (creating a huge area of contact based on your most important playing angles) the shape of your thump-nail might end up totally different then that of another player doing the same but favoring a different playing angle. You might spot that some players as a result have thump nails that are flattened/pointing in "unexpected" directions. Obviously the other fingernail shapes are subject to personal habits/preferences as well.

In short the length and shape of your nail must be optimized for your way of playing, enabling optimal grip (and no hinder) for the various playing angles and types of plugging you apply..... optimal length (in all directions and covering all possible situations) leads to optimal shape....and vice versa.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2013 18:05:00
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
I dont know about your situation but for me it helps to shape the A finger so that it's a bit longer on the side which is closer to index finger. And make it round. It helps with the release of the string when doing tremolo or arpeggio. Tremolo is certainly very difficult to do well but I think it's the technique that demands most from the condition of your fingernails.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2013 8:31:05
 
Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
Since I have been working for a builder and not gigging , I have taken a few stints with no fingernails . Tremolo has always challenged me also, yet at the moment with no fingernails I feel as though I am getting closer to nailing the technique than ever , my mantra for all technique is that it must be relaxed and enjoyable .

This is whats working now . Using konnokol to measure the five notes you have Da di din na gum . Da being the one .I have been working on five note burst but starting at di to get , di din na gum da, finishing on the one , then improvising with the idea anywhere ( I,a,m,i,p) . Any way with no fingernails you get to feel the sensation of the pad of your finger planting and slipping to make even bursts , ending with a thumb rest stroke I remind myself to rest before the next burst . Good luck .

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Peace.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2013 10:47:44
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin James Shanahan
with no fingernails I feel as though I am getting closer to nailing the technique than ever


Must be one soft sounding tremolo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2013 13:46:57
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
I think nails should be short, mainly because of picado.
A good picado sound must be flesh+nail. Plus it is easier for fast scales and the movements can be much more "economical" (less finger movements, just as much as required, not more).

The problem is that with short nails, you have to be much more precise generally (and specially with the tremolo) with small but exact movements, otherwise it doesn't sound even and nice and you even miss the strings, etc. at the beginning. If there would be NO picado at all, i would make my nails slightly longer (not very long but for sure a little longer).

So it is a compromise after all. You need a nail length and shape which is suitable for all techniques. And i agree that you shouldn't change nail length much, but find the proper length and shape and always keep them that way, so that you can practice with the same conditions and basis and be able to improve the techniques, without having to adapt and adjust again and again.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2013 14:01:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to tele) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin James Shanahan
with no fingernails I feel as though I am getting closer to nailing the technique than ever


Must be one soft sounding tremolo



Tarrega, who composed famous recuerdos de la alhambra, played with NO nails. Instead the finger pads developed callouses. I suspect he just never learned to file them for tone and cut em down due to frustration.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2013 14:10:00
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
Here is how a tremolo should be

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=234017&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2013 14:36:52
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:



Tarrega, who composed famous recuerdos de la alhambra, played with NO nails. Instead the finger pads developed callouses.


That's insane. Curiously, are there any original recordings of Tárrega, calloused finger pads and all?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2013 10:51:42
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to machopicasso) 
Dionisio Aguado played with nails and for a time shared a house with another great spanish guitaritst of the time, Fernando Sor who played on calloused pads.

They got along very well and even played duets.

Aguado said that he preferred Sor's way of playing as it had more tonal variety but that it was too late for him to change.

Sor said about the guitars dynamic range that he wished he had a louder guitar so he could play it more softly.

I play with nails but that is my preference. Lute is played with no nails and there are very many fine players. I am sure that they could learn to file their nails if they wished.

I am not aware of any Tarrega recordings but his pupil Miguel Lobbet who is probably a reasonable approximation has historical recording on Amazon. Lobbet was a Catalan and Tarrega a Valenciano from nearby Benicasim.

Segovia was in Andalucia and probable played with the nails for that reason. But this was very far from new in classical guitar as Aguado and Sor were flatmates in paris in 1826,. Interestingly Aguado was from Madrid and Sor Barcelona. So maybe a contrast of regional easthetics. Lute music is typically polyphonic as is the music of Sor. Aguado is mostly block chords and melody with the odd line in thirds.

If there is a tradition of guitar which goes back hundreds of years then this is it as guitar had not yet been integrated into flamenco. It is a very various tradition with no right way but instead lots of different tastes and styles.

Maybe we should be more aware of this example of two chaps living together very happily in Paris nearly three hundred years ago ?

D.

P.S.
(French jokes are loathed in advance)

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2013 11:07:12
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Tarrega, who composed famous recuerdos de la alhambra, played with NO nails. Instead the finger pads developed callouses. I suspect he just never learned to file them for tone and cut em down due to frustration.


Not so, Tarrega did play with nails for most of his career.

Towards the end of his career he could not and cut them off, reportedly due to ill health, but there is some conjecture over what he meant by 'no nail' and many argue he simply meant little nail (compared to how he played before).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Machopicasso
Curiously, are there any original recordings of Tárrega, calloused finger pads and all?


No.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2013 12:12:36
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to Blondie#2) 
quote:

Not so, Tarrega did play with nails for most of his career.


Strange. I've always understood Tarrega did not use his nails to play. (Which always surprised me). But have never seen anything definitive. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2013 12:25:23
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan) 
quote:

Using konnokol to measure the five notes you have Da di din na gum


What exactly is 'konnokol', and 'da di din na gum'?

Never heard of that. Is it some kind of rhythm counter?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2013 12:27:43
 
Flamencosaint

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Mar. 12 2013
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
Length and shape are equally important, my nails are not too long neither too short and I find a consistency doing other techniques as well. Its all about what feels most comfortable to you but more nail gives a more percussive riggid flamenco sound. just my opinion
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2013 13:30:13
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

quote:

Not so, Tarrega did play with nails for most of his career.

Strange. I've always understood Tarrega did not use his nails to play. (Which always surprised me).


Its a popular myth, mainly because of his legacy in the form of his pupils who certainly did play nail-less (like Pujol) - the 'Tarrega school' if you like.

Check out last few paragraphs of the bio. Comes from the official biography as I recall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_T%C3%A1rrega

Recuerdos was composed when he played with nails, which is the main thing relevant to this thread.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2013 13:30:36
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Tremolo and nail length? (in reply to Blondie#2) 
Did Regondi play with nails ?

I am pretty sure Weiss didn't.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2013 17:29:15
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