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No magic bullets.
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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 RE: No magic bullets. (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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Well i agree but to a certain extent.
There ARE in fact many things which should be taught and learned in more or less ONE correct way. Teachers must be aware of that and don't confuse students whith too much ballast or "do whatever you want" or "do it my way" type of teaching. They will waste students money, time and talent.
A beginner needs a good teacher and shouldn't be confused with 1000 different theories.
There are certain rules, basics, fundaments, techniques, etc. which should be followed by everyone who is interested to learn flamenco properly.
There is no room for much "individualism" or "pseudointellectualism" concerning some rules. If you wanne play/teach bulerias, you have to play a perfect bulerias and be able to teach it correctly. period.
If you can't do that, stop teaching and go learn it yourself first.
If you want to teach/learn taranta, you are free up to a certain extent, but you can't just noodle on your guitar with some chords used in tarantas and call it taranta. There is a "hidden" rythm and vibe going on in the background of libre palos which you hear in ALL professional pieces and you must learn to realise that and feel it and learn it. People with experience can tell if you already master that or not. (just some examples)
And there are many situations where teachers must say to their students:
"You must do it the correct way. Don't play around and don't get weird ideas. do what i told you.". They must be confident enough to say if something is wrong from someone else: "Don't do that. thats wrong."
On the other hand we have people like Professor R...., who bash other great teachers for no reason. Thats not what i mean, and thats the other extreme.
Different strategies, individualism, etc. are good for certain areas and aspects (like composition, learning memorizing strategies, etc.). But not for everything.
Now i assume you agree with me and that what you meant was about those certain areas where different approaches are no problem, but anyway just wanted to say that there is a middle ground and one should know where its good to use ones individuality and where not so much, and instead rely on fundaments and basics of some few maestros and the art itself.
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Date May 14 2013 16:39:08
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: No magic bullets. (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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You can "dislike" it all you want, and it is informative to hear many different takes and opinions so that one student can take it all and see what might work or not for HIM or HERSELF, but the simple fact remains that between two (2) points, a straight line is the SHORTEST distance. You can take alternate paths, make circles and snakes, short cuts etc, but in the end it all points to the same thing, there IS a best and most efficient method. A teacher's job is to try to help guide the student and explain why one path is straighter than the other, but in the end it is STUDENT that has to see it for himself. I believe flamenco guitar has it's own discipline and language and you can try to find different ways to learn it, but you will not ever find a way better than the way it has traditionally been done for over hundred years.
No music stands, no compas clocks, no potty training metronomes, no ergonomic alexanders, no digital slow downers, no U-tubes, no yoga metal ball hand massagers, no digital tuners, no loops and drum box machines, nothing more than exposure to voices, hand claps, feet and body movement, the instrument (guitar) and time to experience and learn the authentic way in the right environment. THat is the straight line, and anything else is just adding time and distance to travel even though one may finally end up at the same point one day.
I know the jist of your posts have been to clarify your position that you don't want further explainations of your points to be taken as non acceptance of other view points, the truth is when one view is the polar opposite, how can one truly "accept" the other view? example. "Do this..." next..."um NO don't do that that will mess you up, do THIS instead... I think it it totally fine to restate and drive your point if you feel strongly about it.
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Date May 15 2013 16:20:11
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: No magic bullets. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
You can "dislike" it all you want, and it is informative to hear many different takes and opinions so that one student can take it all and see what might work or not for HIM or HERSELF, but the simple fact remains that between two (2) points, a straight line is the SHORTEST distance. You can take alternate paths, make circles and snakes, short cuts etc, but in the end it all points to the same thing, there IS a best and most efficient method. A teacher's job is to try to help guide the student and explain why one path is straighter than the other, but in the end it is STUDENT that has to see it for himself. I believe flamenco guitar has it's own discipline and language and you can try to find different ways to learn it, but you will not ever find a way better than the way it has traditionally been done for over hundred years.
No music stands, no compas clocks, no potty training metronomes, no ergonomic alexanders, no digital slow downers, no U-tubes, no yoga metal ball hand massagers, no digital tuners, no loops and drum box machines, nothing more than exposure to voices, hand claps, feet and body movement, the instrument (guitar) and time to experience and learn the authentic way in the right environment. THat is the straight line, and anything else is just adding time and distance to travel even though one may finally end up at the same point one day.
I know the jist of your posts have been to clarify your position that you don't want further explainations of your points to be taken as non acceptance of other view points, the truth is when one view is the polar opposite, how can one truly "accept" the other view? example. "Do this..." next..."um NO don't do that that will mess you up, do THIS instead... I think it it totally fine to restate and drive your point if you feel strongly about it.
' but the simple fact remains that between two (2) points, a straight line is the SHORTEST distance.'
I think you are postulating a two dimensional landscape there.
Also that there is only one starting point and one end point.
I just don't see things that way.
I think we all got different start points, different destinations and hit different obstacles on the way.
Some you climb over, some you go round. Some you sit down and have a good look at if landscape is your thing.
D.
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Date May 15 2013 16:44:19
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ToddK
Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
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RE: No magic bullets. (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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I see Ricardo's point. Ultimately, i think the answer is decievingly
simple as to what the "straight line" is.
Of course immersion in the dancing, singing, etc...
I think thats pretty obvious. Unfortunately, most students dont have
the time nor means to quote " experience and learn the authentic way in the right environment."
As effective as the method mentioned has been, i believe
there is always room for additional methods for helping new
students to understand certain types of music. Different people hear things differently, and they also learn in different ways. Its not a crazy concept to think that these people sometimes need supplements in addition to the traditional method. If you cant move to Spain, or
live in an area with a "flamenco scene", or countless other unfortunate
scenarios, you need other options.
Its really easy for some people to say, "its simple, just do this!"
Some of us were lucky enough to grow up in fairly ideal circumstances
regarding guitar, flamenco, etc... Ricardo, you are one of them.
I was very lucky as well.
If my father had been a plumber instead of a flamenco guitarist,i probably wouldnt even be on this forum right now.
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Date May 16 2013 7:43:51
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: No magic bullets. (in reply to z6)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: z6
Classical guitar technique purports to do such a thing but I do not see that. Even in the most advanced classical guitar players (unless they have accrued some of flamenco's bullets) this 'pasting' of a general technique to all and any music hits many walls. The most obvious symptom of which being the laceration of rhythm.
That's an interesting statement. I know some CG teachers claim classical is a good foundation for beginners who would otherwise be strumming pickstyle on a steel-string, but have never heard anyone claim that expert CG technique directly translates to any other style. I can see that flamenco technique, emphasizing as it does danceable rhythm and forceful, rapid execution would be helpful if someone wanted to play fingerstyle nylon guitar in a jazz or rock setting. Or tango. But I still see plenty of walls for the flamenco who wants to transition to another advanced style.
And keep in mind the sacrifice of nuance, flexibilty of tone, harmonic knowledge, phrasing, balancing of polyphony, and familiarity with several hundreds years of classical music--obviously these are partly a matter of technique and partly intrinsic parts of CG training. The importance of these depend on taste.
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Date May 26 2013 21:02:48
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