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saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Problem?   You are logged in as Guest
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turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Problem? 
Would you guys say that on a true flamenco guitar, if you were to pull the saddle out, and put the strings at a small amount of tension, and the action @12 were still 2mm, that there is an issue somewhere?

Or could that be considered within the allowable range of possibility?

I would think that if the neck angle were correct and the bridge set up correctly, if you pulled the saddle out, the action would be 1mm or less in a perfect world.

Thx
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 3:39:58
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

there is an issue somewhere?


Is there an issue? Are you aware of a problem?

From what you've said the saddle must be only 1.5/2.0mm above the saddle slot. That's low but not really a problem if the action is good at the 12th (2.5/3.0) and at the bridge (~8mm)

And if the guitar plays well and you aren't aware of a problem, then there's no problem surely?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 7:38:27
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to krichards) 
i mean to say, when there is no saddle at all (not like I would play the guitar like that),...

but when I pull it out and tighten the strings a bit, and the action is at 2mm, blah blah

in other words, there is no way the action will be below 2mm. Ever. Unless I do something significant.

Is that normal?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 7:42:49
 
krichards

Posts: 597
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From: York, England

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
What's the action at the 12th and at the bridge when the saddle is in place?

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Kevin Richards

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 7:49:53
 
KMMI77

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 9:50:30
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
I dont see a real problem
If stringheight at 12th fret 6th string is 2mm without the sadlle bone in the slot, Then you would need some to 2mm extra height from the saddle bone in order to get a stringheight of 3mm at the 12th fret. (thats what KRichards said in other words as well)

This means that if you have a 5,5 - 6mm thick bridge the you´ll get a stringeheight, 6th string at the bridge of around 7,5 - 8mm. Which is more or less perfect.

If the string holes in the bridge are drilled high and there´s only 6 of them, the the breakangle will be a little bit low, but thats because of a poor job on the stringholes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 10:17:53
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

I recently played a great sounding guitar. It was super light, responsive and great to play. But the action was already about 2.7mm with nowhere to go at the bridge. With each strum I was feeling the brand new thin top loosening up. I don't think that guitar will last long.


Some guitars dont move lower. Some does. But it might take 25 years. Besides, depending on the thickness of the bridge and the depth of the saddle slot, you can always shave the bridge a bit thinner. Its easy and a pretty standard thing on old guitars. And when done correctly, it can hardly be seen.

If there´s enough breakangle on the bridge, and sometimes it doesnt have to be much, you can make the stringheight 12th string at the bridge as low as around 6 - 6,5mm depending on the attack of the player. If you go lower, you start hitting the soundboard when you do strong picados. Some players like that and some players doing mostly dance flamenco strongly prefer such a low bridge setup.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 10:23:30
 
KMMI77

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 10:41:44
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
when you buy a guitar, best would be if you have setup with around 2.8 mm and 3.00 mm at 12th fret BUT at the same time plenty of bone left to lower it to 2.0mm for instance (if you would want that action). you could then also make another bone for the lower action (if you want to have the choice). and if you would want to resell the guitar, you can install the original bone again and leave it to the buyer if he is happy with 3.0mm or would want to lower it.

but if the starting situation should already be around 3.00 mm at 12th and at the same time no bone or almost no bone left to be taken away, then that sucks because it means thats around the lowest you can get.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 11:55:04
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
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From: NY, USA

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
I would echo what Anders and krichards are saying, if the action with the saddle IN is at 3 mm, and there is 2 mm of bone showing above the bridge, that's a good situation.

Also when people are talking about action here, I'm curious, are you just measuring the string height over the 12th fret, or are you fretting the first fret and then measuring it?

Pure string height over the 12th fret of 2 mm is basically unplayable to 95% of players IMO because of the amount of buzzing you will experience. A lot of players don't realize that going from a 3 mm to a 2 mm action is a huge difference that will completely change the sound of their guitar...

Many people bring guitars to me and ask me to lower the action, so I will take it down say .3 mm depending on the guitar, but now they complain about all these buzzes that they never had before (and the fretwork and neck relief are perfect). If there were one thing that I wish players would understand better it's action. Namely: when you bring the action down, the guitar WILL start to get a little buzzier. There's a reason why classical guitars are set to 4+ mm action on the basses standard.

So you have to decide if you're

a) Someone who's OK with some buzz, or
b) Someone who's going to have to live with a slightly higher action

In my experience the vast majority of professionals and very good players fall into the b category.

Action rant over, sorry. lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 13:09:21
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
Turnermoran
As I understand it, there is no actual problem with this guitar?
Sounds like you are hoping for a problem, so that you can justify buying a new one, eh?

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Kevin Richards

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 13:14:36
 
Andy Culpepper

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From: NY, USA

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
One other point is that very responsive and lively guitars will usually buzz more than quieter guitars with a given action. The good news is that the livelier guitars with a wider string excursion will generally have a little bit softer feel so you won't notice the extra .2 mm of action or so.

Action is just a number, it's how the guitar feels that's important.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 13:15:14
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to KMMI77) 
quote:

I set the action at 2mm


I find that hard to believe.
How are you measuring this? Are you sure its only 2.0mm. If so, it surely buzzes like crazy.

You need feeler gauges or a string height gauge to make an accurate measurement. You can't do it with a ruler.

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Kevin Richards

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 13:17:18

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
Any nylon-strung guitar, no matter how good the fret work or neck relief may be, is going to have excessive buzzing with a 2mm sixth string action at the 12th fret if you do much more than just tickle the strings.
A good number of pro players have an action approaching 3.5mm, perhaps even a bit higher, and they generally aren't nearly as concerned with the actual numbers like many amateur players seem to be. Depending on other factors like neck width, profile, etc. a higher action can still be very comfortable.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 13:22:54
 
KMMI77

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 13:43:24
 
KMMI77

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 14:20:15

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
I'll drop by in an hour or so to check out that magical Conde.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2013 14:58:38
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to KMMI77) 
I agree w/ Kris and Andy: if there is no way to lower the action any lower and it's at 2mm, maybe that's normal, but that's a bummer.

Even if "lower than 2mm @12th" is unlikely on most guitars (is it?), in order to get it that low, I am flagrantly avoiding the 50/50 rule, whereby 1/2 the saddle material is in the slot, and 1/2 is above the slot. In fact, most is in the slot and only the tiniest sliver is exposed above the saddle slot. NOt sure if that's another thing we're told to accept as gospel and it's actually untrue
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 1:51:31
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
Many people would consider that situation perfect for a flamenco guitar. That is, many people want the saddle to be as low as possible so the strings are as close as possible to the soundboard. 2 mm with no saddle means that with a saddle installed and 1 mm of it showing above the wood of the bridge, the action at the 12th fret would be 2.5 mm, which could be very nice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 3:29:32
 
KMMI77

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 3:32:37
 
KMMI77

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 3:45:20
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
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RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
part of my curiosity with all this is regarding the approach to building:

if you could make a guitar with 2mm action @ 12th, and still have plenty of bone to go lower, would there be drawbacks in making such a guitar? Would the bridge construction be such that it could result in a wimpy sounding guitar?

Or in setting such a neck angle, are there other things that happen that compromise the guitar?

Is it luck that results in a guitar like Kris is describing: neck straight as an arrow, top straight and super low action?.. does such a guitar lack power?

There's obviously more to it than all this, and there's also an x-factor where you could try for this and nature has other things in mind for the final set up.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 5:35:30
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

Any nylon-strung guitar, no matter how good the fret work or neck relief may be, is going to have excessive buzzing with a 2mm sixth string action at the 12th fret if you do much more than just tickle the strings.
A good number of pro players have an action approaching 3.5mm, perhaps even a bit higher, and they generally aren't nearly as concerned with the actual numbers like many amateur players seem to be. Depending on other factors like neck width, profile, etc. a higher action can still be very comfortable.


I agree 100%

Over the years we´ve had a few members with magical guitars. Only a few. I think the record was a 1,5mm set no buzzing at all. We all just laughed. There are no magical guitar setup not even by the famous Hermanos Conde.

Steel string guitars have a slightly lower setup than flamencos and they all buzz when going below 2,5mm.

Another thing is that you can have a lower setup on flamenco guitars. 2mm is possible if accept a LOT of buzzing and accept a big loos of projection and musical dynamics.

Get that guitar adjusted to lets say 2,9 - 3mm and adjust your fingers to that. And more important teach yourself not to be so freaked out when it comes to numbers. You´ll see that your playing will sound a lot better. A lot more power an sound.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 8:48:01
 
KMMI77

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 9:58:30
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
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From: NY, USA

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

if you could make a guitar with 2mm action @ 12th, and still have plenty of bone to go lower, would there be drawbacks in making such a guitar?


Yes. The string height at the bridge would be way too high with a normal action of 3 mm.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 13:26:23
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
KMMI,
I personally have never built or seen any guitar that was playable with 2 mm action. Around 2.5-2.8 mm on the basses is where are a guitar will start to buzz excessively for the vast majority of players, and 2 mm is a looooong way from 2.5.

Some pro players prefer an action of around 3.5 mm because even at 3 mm you will get some buzzes when digging in hard. The reason why classical guitars are set with around 4 mm action on the basses is because in that range you really start eliminating pretty much all buzzes.

Also I would like to see pics of your ruler and how you are measuring. If it's one of those wooden grade-school ones I'm calling foul

With all that being said, I could possibly imagine a "magical" guitar that would be playable with 2 mm action, but it wouldn't be comfortable at all for most people to play.
And having a "stiff" and "straight" neck have nothing to do with it, for an unbuzzy action you don't want the neck to be straight, you want a little relief.
Such a guitar would have:

a) Extra hard tension strings
b) Very hard pulsation/stiff top
c) Low volume

Basically it would be murder on the right hand and only useful maybe for recording.

Honestly I think you're just not measuring accurately

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 13:42:18
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to KMMI77) 
quote:

At least I know what you think of me Anders. An uninformed liar.


Could you please stop putting words in my mouth that I´ve never said. I havent even thought it. ok.
You are not being fair. I wasnt writing anything else than what everyone working pro or seriously with flamenco guitars has said in this thread or over the years.
So why dont you start throwing dirt at the others. Why only me?

What I can see is that your visions of flamenco guitars have very little to do with mine (And I´m not alone on this one) Its ok... Go ahead. Its not a problem. I can live with that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 14:15:21

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
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RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
As is often the case with this and other internet forums, some of the "visions" expressed have little to do with reality.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 14:20:03
 
gbv1158

 

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From: Italy

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
quote:

Pure string height over the 12th fret of 2 mm is basically unplayable to 95% of players IMO because of the amount of buzzing you will experience


I AGREE 100%!

:-) ciao,
giambattista
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 14:37:59
 
KMMI77

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 15:15:22
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