Call me crazy (warning weird string theory content)...

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tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

Call me crazy (warning weird string ...

... but I've been playing D'addario EJ45's with both clear and negra trebles back and forth for on the same guitar for a while now. The negra trebles do not have the same brilliance to my ears. I'm not one of those guys who sits around and tries to dissect every little aspect of tone but I swear the negra trebles sound like they have already been played for a few weeks compared to the standard clear on a new set. All this tone change because of some black dye?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 12:57:12

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to tri7/5)

Crazy.

Dyed strings sound more raw to me, less harmonics I guess. I remember the first time I tried Aranjuez trebles.. instant flamenco mojo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 13:25:06

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to tri7/5)

Weird String Theory? Are we talking physics or flamenco? (Poor attempt at humor!)

I use Savarez High Tension 540Js on my 660 scale Gerundino and Luthier Medium Tension 20s on my 650 scale Manuel Adalid. Both have clear trebles. Aside from possible differences in tone between clear trebles and colored trebles, I just don't like the appearance and aesthetics of black or red trebles on my guitars. It probably is my own peculiar angle on the subject, but I think black or red trebles make a guitar look like a cheap Chinese knockoff.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 14:03:42

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

Crazy.

Dyed strings sound more raw to me, less harmonics I guess. I remember the first time I tried Aranjuez trebles.. instant flamenco mojo

I agree with the less harmonics portion as well, more fundamental in tone somehow. It's just that EJ negras are less bright somehow, less snap, more plunk (dead).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 14:05:56

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Weird String Theory? Are we talking physics or flamenco? (Poor attempt at humor!)

I use Savarez High Tension 540Js on my 660 scale Gerundino and Luthier Medium Tension 20s on my 650 scale Manuel Adalid. Both have clear trebles. Aside from possible differences in tone between clear trebles and colored trebles, I just don't like the appearance and aesthetics of black or red trebles on my guitars. It probably is my own peculiar angle on the subject, but I think black or red trebles make a guitar look like a cheap Chinese knockoff.

Cheers,

Bill

My inner nerd is always down for some physics talk. I'm the opposite I love the look of black trebles.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 14:08:56

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to tri7/5)

Iam a fan of "plunkety-plunk".

Maybe the dye kills harmonics. Colored strings sound more raw to me (like early flamenco records), clear trebles sound fancier when you apply some articulation (more like Vicente Amigo). This observation only applies when talking about both kinds on the same guitar.

As everything, its pretty much relative.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 14:12:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to tri7/5)

You see down at the plank length the clear trebels vibrate in only 10 dimensions, and the black trebs vibrate in 11 dimensions, thus your perception of "brighter" is skewed as you forgot how the ricci tensor is affected by type IIB string theory.

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0412127

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 14:30:06

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

the clear trebels vibrate in only 10 dimensions, and the black trebs vibrate in 11 dimensions

In bosonic string theory it'd be 26

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 15:38:01

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to tri7/5)

The surface of a metal string when new has a smooth crystal structure and at high tension gives the most harmonics. As it rusts the oxide coating damps down the higher harmonics until there is little left but a thump as the string moves the top ( well if you leave your strings on as long as I do...).

A matte nylon string will not resonate as well as a polished one ( as anyone who has bought a dodgy set of Savarez will know).

Any doping agent ( such as dye) will alter the rate of crystallisation of a string structure and thus the regularity of the lattices produced. I would assume that this would give a softer surface and this would be more 'smudged' than a pure nylon string during the polishing process. I would assume that this would give marginally less brilliance and a slightly shortened life.

I just pulled that out my a** but you know it kind of rings true.

PS plectrums with skulls sound more 'metal'

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 15:48:19

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I agree with those conclusions. In the past I bought a set of those rectified Savarez so I could use the trebles on a guitar whose G string would give a metalic buzz no matter what. The buzz from a rectified string is greatly reduced, doesnt annoy.

I might be wrong but I also get the feeling that the wound strings harden with time/use.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 16:34:24

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

You see down at the plank length the clear trebels vibrate in only 10 dimensions, and the black trebs vibrate in 11 dimensions, thus your perception of "brighter" is skewed as you forgot how the ricci tensor is affected by type IIB string theory.

Duh a*&holes jeez...........

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 17:47:24

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to Leñador)

This is how D'addario describe the strings on their website.

"Trebles

Clear Nylon – The traditional standard for classical strings. Balance of warmth, brightness and projection with an ultra-smooth surface preferred by many professionals for its comfortable nail contact.

Black Nylon – A warmer, mellower tone than clear nylon and a popular choice for folk and some classical guitars."

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductsClassical.Page?ActiveID=1906

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 18:39:27

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

This is how D'addario describe the strings on their website.

"Trebles

Clear Nylon – The traditional standard for classical strings. Balance of warmth, brightness and projection with an ultra-smooth surface preferred by many professionals for its comfortable nail contact.

Black Nylon – A warmer, mellower tone than clear nylon and a popular choice for folk and some classical guitars."

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductsClassical.Page?ActiveID=1906

And all of string theory boils down to advertisement descriptions?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 19:19:35

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

This is how D'addario describe the strings on their website.

"Trebles

Clear Nylon – The traditional standard for classical strings. Balance of warmth, brightness and projection with an ultra-smooth surface preferred by many professionals for its comfortable nail contact.

Black Nylon – A warmer, mellower tone than clear nylon and a popular choice for folk and some classical guitars."

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductsClassical.Page?ActiveID=1906

Well I'll be... an advertisement that is actually true. I had never read their description of them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 20:20:46

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to tri7/5)

Came here expecting to find physics.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 20:41:32

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyingsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

Black Nylon – A warmer, mellower tone than clear nylon and a popular choice for folk and some classical guitars."

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductsClassical.Page?ActiveID=1906

Well I'll be... an advertisement that is actually true. I had never read their description of them.

Though if you look at the website you'll see this refers to their folk strings, which have black nylon trebles - these appear in the list of strings you can scroll through, whilst D'Addario flamenco strings are not listed.

Haven't used D'Addario black flamenco strings, but La Bellas are very bright and certainly not just the classical strings 'dyed black'. Different material, different string diameter, different sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 20:57:57

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to Blondie#2)

quote:

Though if you look at the website you'll see this refers to their folk strings, which have black nylon trebles - these appear in the list of strings you can scroll through, whilst D'Addario flamenco strings are not listed.

I contacted D'addario, they told me the flamenco set trebles are actually standard pro arte hard tension trebles. The clear flamenco (EJ25C) same trebles as EJ46, the black flamenco (EJ25B) same as trebles as EJ50.

Though OP wasn't refering to flamenco set but to EJ45s (black set is called EJ49)

So black trebles in two of the three available sets are the same material not sure about the remaining 'folk' strings, could just be the ball end that's different?

I'll try to email D'Addario and ask which black trebles they are referring to in their description because they say "popular choice for folk and some classical guitars" but don't specifically refer to either listed set- folk or EJ49/50. Or am I missing something?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 22:04:33

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 18 2013 6:57:24

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2013 22:17:19

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to orsonw)

Interesting - I was at a marketing presentation yesterday and the guy put up a slide with car makes - Seat, Skoda, Audi and several others. He said they were all owned by Volkswagen and 80% of the parts are the same, its all about branding the products to sell to different markets and maximise sales.

From what you're saying, looks like D'Addario have gone one step further and are simply repackaging exactly same product to maximise sales.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2013 8:06:18

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to Blondie#2)

Todd found out that the D'Addario flamenco basses are different and only found in the flamenco set:

(His post is half way down)
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=158635&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=flamenco%2Cstrings

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2013 13:36:33

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to orsonw)

D'addario's 'customer service product specialist' told me their black treble description applies to all black trebles whatever the set.

"Black Nylon – A warmer, mellower tone than clear nylon and a popular choice for folk and some classical guitars."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2013 19:24:26

kenjo138

Posts: 114
Joined: May 29 2011

RE: Call me crazy (warning weird str... (in reply to orsonw)

Savarez base and Hannabach Amber trebles seems to work the best for me. However, I on other guitars I have other strings that seem to work better. For example, D. Mari strings seem to work best on my Manuel Adalid. I would say that it also depends on the guitar as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 19:36:06