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Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
But they are not the work of educated men of course.
I still stand by what I said. Complexity and sophistication in music, as well as in language, can come from experience as much as from education. Rhythm is a crucial component in music and should not be downplayed for the sake of tonality. If you can't play rhythm, you can't play music.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
I still stand by what I said. Complexity and sophistication in music, as well as in language, can come from experience as much as from education. Rhythm is a crucial component in music and should not be downplayed for the sake of tonality. If you can't play rhythm, you can't play music.
Doing some googling it seems our complex society by its very nature tends to suppress the primitive functions of the brain. That's not to say we can make hard and fast conclusions on degree of aptitude. But certainly the observation can be made I believe that complex rhythms are a feature of primitive society at least of those originating in Africa.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
Imo the guy do not get it right coz he do not like bullfight. According to this fundamental statement, I read somewhere here a couple of days ago, it's the only explanation that came to my mind. Mister, go to see some corrida and you'll get it! Los ke saben gave us the remedy...
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Leñador)
Is it actually debatable that primitive societies emphasized rhythmic sophistication over harmonic or melodic? The crux of the matter, as I see it, is whether modern society should be thought of as superior to archaic ones. That is a matter of values. Is the outrage from the use of the word "primitive" and assuming it to be derogatory?
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
Paul Bowles writes that the illiterate Moroccans had a highly developed sense of rhythm.... So as flamenco has complex rhythm is seems to be a trait of those less sophisticated in language
What is your evidence that "complex rhythm seems to be a trait of those less sophisticated in language"? Paul Bowles's observation that illiterate Moroccans had a hghly developed sense of rhythm? Illiteracy refers to the written word; it has nothing to do with complexity or sophistication of language itself, as spoken and understood by individuals. Or are you suggesting that those well-versed in flamenco are, by definition, less sophisticated in their Spanish language ability? Some names as evidence, please.
Are you sure you are not confusing a random correlation with causation? That Bowles may have encountered illiterate Moroccans with a highly developed sense of rhythm hardly suggests that illiteracy was the cause, or an adjunct function, of their rhythmic ability. That there may have been some flamencos whose language ability was not up to the standards of the Real Academia Espanola hardly suggests that that was the cause, or an adjunct function, of their flamenco ability, or that all flamencos were at that level.
The cock crows each morning before the sun comes up. This happens day after day, unfailingly. The cock crows, and the sun comes up. Do we conclude that the cock's crowing is a necessary prerequisite for the sun to rise?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
The cock crows each morning before the sun comes up. This happens day after day, unfailingly. The cock crows, and the sun comes up. Do we conclude that the cocks' crowing is a necessary prerequisite for the sun to rise?
I thought the screaming baby in the apartment next to me made the sun rise, that seemed pretty dependable..............
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
quote:
When i entered Rotterdam Conservatory to study flamenco guitar on a full time base i had impeccable ears,
Were you excused from learning to read music and were tabs acceptable?
No, fortunately i wasn't exused. As a matter of fact the first lesson i received was musical history (lectured by the notable Han Koenen) and halfway the lesson we were expected to read and understand the written music he presented to us (without even holding an instrument). So after the lesson i inquired if he was aware of the fact most of the flamenco students (including myself) were not able to read written music..... Impossible was his reaction....those people should never ever be accepted on this conservatory or any conservatory in the world. For practical reasons we were dismissed from attending musical theory and history for the rest of the year. That first year was basically spend on learning how to play the guitar properly, forgetting everything we had learned in the past and starting from scratch with trying to play an open string with the thump....the correct way.
The second year we picked up musical theory and musical history again, again starting from scratch with learning how to write/read notes & rhythm and how to name and annotate keys, intervals and harmonies. Our teacher became the wonderful Erica de Wijs who competed/joined my father in being my best teacher i ever had (they happened to be almost neighbors as well). When we were still in the process of learning how to write/read single notes she would play us extremely simple tunes which were so predictable that quite often i finished writing the intended melody on the blackboard before she even had the chance to play it to the end ...not that i was that quick in writing, but she only played a couple of notes at the time to adapt to our level of writing and in general i only needed a couple of notes to get the general idea (lots of so called sequences).
To learn how to apply written notes on the guitar i secretly used the hand written Bach scores of my father. I grew up with that music (it was studied/played life in my presence) and i could sing al the melodies and harmonies at the age of 4/6 so i would immediately knew when i misread/played a note.... on top it was relatively simple music to read (a single melody, a base line, a couple of extra notes).
At the same time my father developed the most sophisticated annotation system for flamenco known to me, combining classical guitar notation with 30 years of experience in writing/reading numerous kinds of music (among which drum/percussion notation that had a far more readable rhythm notation then standard classical notation). His scores not only show you the exact notes and rhythm but also the exact fingering of both hands, technical tricks like (half) barre, the compas, the musical structures within (or on top of) the compas and notes concerning the interpretation...like 1 student ones said, you don't only precent us the piece, you also explain it (not sure if that referred to his writings or to his playing but it fitted both disciples).
I obviously used/needed my growing writing/reading "capacities" for my musical theory lessons. If you have to make a written analyses of a symphonic work (like in my case the Hayden symphony no 86, minuet/trio part) it really helps if you have the scores on top of the record (showing you all the events with 100% certainty). As far as flamenco is concerned my "reading" was also handy because it gave me direct and unrestricted access to the fabulous and extremely informing flamenco scores my father made over the years. Unfortunately i have never reached a level allowing me to play music from paper at performing or even (slow) reading speed but always had to struggle my way true a partiture note by note. I simply figured out as many notes as i cared to remember, learned them by heart and then worked out the next couple of notes (or like Paco used to say "playing is easy...you play the first note, then the second and so on and so on). Memorizing a complete piece from paper would take me about 3 hours (far less then the time needed to ear play it with 100% perfection). Since we only added 3 pieces/palos a year my yearly contact with "written flamenco music" was restricted to reading "3 pieces once" (at most, since a growing part of the material i played was ear-played by myself).
Although we were supposed to learn classic notation for music theory every student was allowed to avoid the written scores in the flamenco lessons, who were still traditionally based on "apply what i just said/played". But once you realize you are ear playing a teacher that is reading a partiture (and that much time is wasted on you learning/memorizing the notes) you don't have to be a genius to figure out that the lesson is better spend if you prepare yourself by selecting/studying/memorizing the music from paper befor you go to the lesson so all time can be spend to refining interpretation and the correct use of the hands (knowing witch finger to use and/or in which direction doesn't mean you automatically use them the correct way).... the same solea por bulerias that took me 3 hours to memorize from paper took another (non reading) student 6 mounts to learn/memorize during the lesson....15 or more wasted lessons.
When i annotate a piece myself i still prefer tabs (despite it's limitations compared to my fathers system) simply because i can write/read tabs more quickly than standard notation (still have to spell it note by note). But i can make pretty readable classical scores if i need.
The minuet/trio part of the Haydn symphony i analysed (using both the scores and a record) resulted in a 120 page script. The music can be heard in this recording between 2:05:45 and 2:10:45.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
Imo the guy do not get it right coz he do not like bullfight. According to this fundamental statement, I read somewhere here a couple of days ago, it's the only explanation that came to my mind. Mister, go to see some corrida and you'll get it! Los ke saben gave us the remedy...
I can count among my memories a performance of Luis Miguel Dominguin. You have heard of him? Perhaps not.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
I can count among my memories a performance of Luis Miguel Dominguin. You have heard of him? Perhaps not.
1st time I heard his name. I'm not interested in this field. Now I think that you probably understand flamenco more than me entonces. Since it was catechized that non bullfight lovers will never understand flamenco. My bad! I'm gonna continue to instruct myself through you and others that posses knowledge.
it said
Dios te ha dado a ti sabiduria Una palabrita tuya vale por 200 mias...
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
What is your evidence that "complex rhythm seems to be a trait of those less sophisticated in language"? Paul Bowles's observation that illiterate Moroccans had a hghly developed sense of rhythm? Illiteracy refers to the written word; it has nothing to do with complexity or sophistication of language itself, as spoken and understood by individuals. Or are you suggesting that those well-versed in flamenco are, by definition, less sophisticated in their Spanish language ability? Some names as evidence, please.
Are you sure you are not confusing a random correlation with causation? That Bowles may have encountered illiterate Moroccans with a highly developed sense of rhythm hardly suggests that illiteracy was the cause, or an adjunct function, of their rhythmic ability. That there may have been some flamencos whose language ability was not up to the standards of the Real Academia Espanola hardly suggests that that was the cause, or an adjunct function, of their flamenco ability, or that all flamencos were at that level.
Bur more to the point I have read extensively of Bowles and the stories he recorded and translated into English and saw to their publication for the benefit of the authors. It is very interesting to read his accounts of conditions in the remote areas and the uses of the percussive rhythms over a period of time meant to induce trance. As he said, it doesn't come quickly. Illiteracy is not being able to read or write and that was the condition as of the 50s as the French had done nothing to remedy that condition. Bowels first visited Tangier in 1930 with Arron Copeland (they were lovers) with whom he studied composition. But as Paul said, Arron found another pet. The books he translated are straightforward accounts of daily life at the time. The recordings of the now vanished primitive culture are in the Smithsonian I believe. And if you don't believe they were primitive, read Bowles. I am not saying that today's flamenco crowd are primitive only it seems to me that the the tradition must have sprang from such a primitive tradition and culture.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
So after the lesson i inquired if he was aware of the fact most of the flamenco students (including myself) were not able to read written music..... Impossible was his reaction....those people should never ever be accepted on this conservatory or any conservatory in the world.
Priceless! Thank for that very interesting post. Could you show a bit of your father's method of inscribing flamenco.
Psychological Review Journal Article from 1897? Cutting edge stuff dude. The article, aside from being dated, reads like a doctoral thesis on advanced pretensiousness. The author was probably beaten to death by his own colleagues at some point.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
quote:
So after the lesson i inquired if he was aware of the fact most of the flamenco students (including myself) were not able to read written music..... Impossible was his reaction....those people should never ever be accepted on this conservatory or any conservatory in the world.
Priceless! Thank for that very interesting post. Could you show a bit of your father's method of inscribing flamenco.
And with a flourish off comes the disguise and on goes the red nose
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
Psychological Review Journal Article from 1897? Cutting edge stuff dude. The article, aside from being dated, reads like a doctoral thesis on advanced pretensiousness. The author was probably beaten to death by his own colleagues at some point.
!921.actually. Seems plausible to me and correlates with Bowles' experience. and there were other sources too. So you think primitive African tribes do not exhibit skill at rhythm.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
Sure!
Saw him at the Corrida in Madrid in the 50's.
I think he was also getting in on with Ava Gardner at the time. . . ( lucky bugger. . . )
Ava created a sensation in Spain. Perhaps it was during the time The Sun also Rises was being filmed. I saw Luis in Reynosa which had a tiny "Plaza de toros" It felt like I was in there with him. It was my second bullfight the first being in Mexico City which I think has the largest in the world.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
Is it actually debatable that primitive societies emphasized rhythmic sophistication over harmonic or melodic? The crux of the matter, as I see it, is whether modern society should be thought of as superior to archaic ones. That is a matter of values. Is the outrage from the use of the word "primitive" and assuming it to be derogatory?
From what I read that's the situation. And I don't think one can make a case for the remote settlements Bowles visited as sophisticated. That's just the way it is. If they couldn't read or write and their plumbing consisted of trenches on the outskirts of town where men, women, and children would squat... I am sure they had sterling qualities besides skill at complex rhythms.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
Could you show a bit of your father's method of inscribing flamenco.
Most of the original scores are mend for internal use only, but i hope to show a little bit about his scores/method in future (i'm not able yet to upload scores, photographs or music extracts to the foro because i don't have the software yet to do so).
Paco Serrano (who enjoyed private lessons from my father in the art of flamenco didactics and flamenco annotation) applies many of his recommendations in his new flamenco book (judging the solea and seguiriyas example that were posted on the foro discussion about that book).
* The use of a 5 beat system in seguiriyas (1,2,3.,4.,5) * There is no traditional classical system defining that rhythm so it's simply called Seguiriyas * All the notes in a single beat are visually grouped/connected using vertical (stem) and horizontal (flag) lines (when a note starts halfway the beat and continues in the next beat that note is written twice and connected with a binding so one can clearly see the compas/beat relation at all times).
He did not copy my fathers drum/percussion adaption yet which involves the use of "integrated rests". If a beat starts or ends with a rest my father choose to treat it like any other note, connecting it with a vertical line (stem) to the flag that connects all the notes of that particular beat, once again to show the beat/compas relationship as clearly as possible at all time.
In the solea page he uses the steno rasgueado notation my father applies as well, showing the chord once and then restrict to a clear rhythmic notation of the finger combination/direction.
Paco Serrano can still improve the space devision between the notes/beats to make it visually more attractive/clear.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
That's just the way it is. If they couldn't read or write and their plumbing consisted of trenches on the outskirts of town where men, women, and children would squat... I am sure they had sterling qualities besides skill at complex rhythms.
Some might find those big shoes an encumbrance but you really seem to like clumping around on them.
You must get invited to loads of parties for children.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
Most of the original scores are mend for internal use only, but i hope to show a little bit about his scores/method in future (i'm not able yet to upload scores, photographs or music extracts to the foro because i don't have the software yet to do so).
Paco Serrano (who enjoyed private lessons from my father in the art of flamenco didactics and flamenco annotation) applies many of his recommendations in his new flamenco book (judging the seguiriyas example that was posted on the foro discussion about that book).
All you need is a printer that can scan and attach the file to your post.
Some one said that the demonstration by a player was needed to impart the subtitles of the performance. In this day and age we work at great distances apart and it should be possible to impart much more information that is contained in tabs which seem impossibly archaic. It sounds like your father was trying to remedy that situation.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)
I can hardly play any of my guitars at the moment....bloody awful pain in the joint of my right thumb. Speaking of a pain ,this fella aeolus has got a lot of people well miffed . Excellent read this one....its like watching one person play ten games of chess at the same time...he twists and turns like a twisty turny thing! Perhaps too big a game for one bored member Although I suppose if you stomp hard enough the sound of breaking toes will have a rhythm of its own ,irrelevant how primitive ,just complex breaks and ultimately painful for many.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to shaun)
quote:
I can hardly play any of my guitars at the moment....bloody awful pain in the joint of my right thumb. Speaking of a pain ,this fella aeolus has got a lot of people well miffed . Excellent read this one....its like watching one person play ten games of chess at the same time...he twists and turns like a twisty turny thing! Perhaps too big a game for one bored member Although I suppose if you stomp hard enough the sound of breaking toes will have a rhythm of its own ,irrelevant how primitive ,just complex breaks and ultimately painful for many.
I am a bit disappointed at the quality of response here. I think Eric especially has raised some very interesting ideas that have been buried by the silly defensiveness.
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