RE: "Which guitar do I play today???"

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aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)

quote:

But once again the sound of the guitar itself is a thing of beauty for me.

That's what motivates me to play despite all the difficulties in hearing and creaky fingers. At 9 I heard an old Mexican playing a harp in the Whitney Museum in San Antonio and I never got over it.
As to your hearing aid being too bright, that's what I am afraid of and where I live on the Jersey Cape I don't have access to an audiologist My grandmother was born in 1861 in Brownsville and lived there all here life except when with her husband on La Parra ranch, and she was stone deaf when she died. I can't imagine what loud noises she might ever have heard. Riding open exhaust motobikes as I did I am not surprised my hearing suffered. But what I have read is that the deterioration is a natural thing. I make certain adjustments like watching films that have sub-titles.
One advantage is I don't have to join family reunions as I can plead deafness.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 19:25:01

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Look no further than the expression and nuance in this players COMPOSITION,

Are my eyes playing tricks; or did Melchor drop his cejilla from #5 to #2 at 1:50 of this video.

How the hell did he do that?

_____________________________

Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 19:30:50

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)

quote:

Not too many players are going to beat Matt Palmer for speed. And this piece is "Des arpeges", not "Des picado". Check out MP doing some shredding on this Rodrigo piece:

Holy cow! OK, tell me what is Des arpeges? I thought picado was free stroke. I can't imagine theses speeds bring achieves with a rest stroke.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 19:36:24

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

It means that VL #2 is an arpeggio piece, not a picado piece. "Picado" in flamenco has a specific meaning of alternating rest stroke runs or scales. Arpeggios, in guitar parlance, are RH patterns while holding a chord. The VL #2 adds immense LH coordination issues to the RH patterns, they are "real" arpeggios in the sense of broken chords not tied to idiomatic (easy) shapes on the guitar.

Fast scale runs have been generally played picado or rest stroke, alternating i and m. That has been changing in the CG world recently and they are often played free stroke now. Palmer, following Philip Hii (check out his Toccata and Fugue transcription on Youtube), also uses 3 finger scale runs, which adds the top speed while increasing coordination difficulties.

The macho, fff, jaw-dropping scale runs of the flamencos are rest stroke.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 20:04:05

rombsix

Posts: 7816
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Ramzi made the tutorial note for note video it's crystal clear.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 20:25:14

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

A while back British store owners installed a high frequency sound device (18000cycles) to drive off the teens who were harassing (so they said) honest people. An 18 yo can hear up to 18.000 cycles while no one else much older can. They said it was like mosquitoes buzzing but only a teen could hear it..

I was part of a group of music students/teachers that participated in a university study investigating the negative effects of longterm headphone use by musicians. Since i had used headphones a couple of hours a day during the last 10 years i was one of the students selected for there measurements. Those tests involved getting a headphone on your head and telling them when you heared a sound (various volumes/Hz samples were fired).

Being scientifically interested and schooled myself i questioned there method in front, arguing the possible negative effect to the ears of longterm use of headphones would be more then compensated by the fact that the test poole probably spend half a lifetime training /doing what they were asking me to do now...listening very intense and with full concentration to a (hard to detect) sound....my whole brain was specialized in performing tasks like this for years (in far less idealistic circumstances then being offered single notes) so what were they expecting, that i would do worse than the baker or the grocer ???

It turned out they had indeed completely underestimated that fact. They did test me nevertheless and concluded that at my midd/late 20ties i had no problem hearing 21.000 Hz. At precent day (just turned 50) i probably will fail to hear 14 kHz.

I must add that i owned superb audio equipment (like the Beyerdynamic 990 studio headphone) and never played records extremely heard. According to my teacher of musical theory/history i had "golden ears".

My ears tell me that excellent flamenco players like Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo, Paco Peña and a couple of others (regularly) play excellent compositions (like la Barrosa) and as performers achieved impeccable taste and nuance.....not the nuance of a classical guitar player who (over)fixates on sound (and treats the massive g string slightly different than the less massive b and e string) but a nuance in melody, harmony, arrangement, sound, dynamics, rhythm, interpretation, (self) expression and communication level with the instrument that (in general) is to subtle/specialized for most classical players to detect (in fact many flamenco players don't detect al these nuances as well and within the restrictions of my personal limitations i learned a lot from spending time with the masters and from studying their records in slow motion over and over again).

The mosquito you mentioned funny enough has been replaced by a supposedly more effective deterrent.....classical music :-). Like usual claims like these have to be taken with a lot of salt (not claiming classical music is tasteless off course.....like i said, i have ears). Babies on the other hand seem to benefit from hearing classical music and believe it or not but "life performed classical guitar music" happens to be the first language i ever learned and i love it very very much (although some performers and compositions are total crap, just like in flamenco and in fact every other kind of music).

http://www.metafilter.com/117455/Driving-teenagers-away-with-classical-music

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 20:37:57

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

As I think i mentioned, at 50 when my tinnitus surfaced I had a full complement of tests from x-rays to audio tests and I couldn't hear over 8000 cycles. Having been declared 4-f because of a heart murmur the only loud noises I was subjected to the open exhaust of British motorcycles. During my 20s. I missed the rock thing so I don't think my hearing was unduly stressed. To hear 21k in ones twenty's is indeed extraordinary. There is no question to me that the top flamenco players are first rate musicians but as to the classical players they may still be in the "Segovia" mode as to what they conceive as performance expectations. . Certainly David Russel would be in this category as he learned to play the guitar by ear from his father's Segovia records.
The nylon string guitar is capable of exceptional nuance in the hands of a sensitive player and given it's limitations as to volume and facility those who fail to exploit these strengths had better have some other ace up their sleeve to compete in the marketplace.
I seem to remember that some malls stateside played Lawrence Welk music through their sound systems to drive off the "mall rats". I personally disprove of this treatment for teens.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 21:14:14

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

Ramzi

re Roma tutorial...wouldn't it be much simpler to write it out in staff notation?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 21:17:15

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

Today i was practicing some flamenco with a friend of mine who is actually a classical guitarist.
He studies with Wilfried H. at Classical Conservatory in Frankfurt.
Wilfried played with Julian Bream, etc. and is considered one of the best classical guitarists and teachers in Germany.
I didn't see him personally but my friend showed me a 30 years old video from him playing classical pieces and it was really amazing.

Anyway, so my friend said there is actually only one other style which Wilfried totally respects and would love to learn more about, yep, flamenco. And the weird thing is that one of his comments to him was that he said: he thinks if you truely understand flamenco, you will even be a better classical guitarist.
He is actually a very very strict and severe teacher and doesn't allow his students to play around with pieces for which they are not ready yet, they have to do exactly what is been discussed in the schedule, etc. otherwise he will not teach them anymore, period .... But flamenco, no problem :D

Now he invited us to go to the conservatory and play flamenco there for his classical students.

Don't know why, but while we were talking about these things, i had to think about this "nuance" thread.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 21:36:57

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

there is actually only one other style which Wilfried totally respects and would love to learn more about, yep, flamenco.

Interesting you should cite this example.

When I first moved to Montreal from England I was fortunate enough to meet (chat with,and also accompanied) the celebrated French-Canadian traditional fiddler, Jean Carignan. Incredibly fast and accurate rythmic techniques and renowned for his unique playing style, particularly his inventive bowing techniques.

Jean told me that the leader of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra sometimes took his string section along to local folk clubs and perfomances where he was playing, just to observe his unique playing techniques, some of which were very different from accepted princples of classical violin playing.

Apparently the 'leader' felt they all had something to learn from this little guy who could play so fast and accurate and still rattle his feet on the floor at the same time.

He was an incredible musician. But so are many other traditional - relatively unschooled - musicians.

Including flamenco guitarists. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 22:05:16

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

Apparently the 'leader' felt they all had something to learn from this little guy who could play so fast and accurate and still rattle his feet on the floor at the same time.

He was an incredible musician. But so are many other traditional - relatively unschooled - musicians.

Including flamenco guitarists. . .

Nice post

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 22:17:22

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

Anyway, so my friend said there is actually only one other style which Wilfried totally respects and would love to learn more about, yep, flamenco.

Unfortunately lifespan is to limited to study/learn/play everything you like but i know a couple of more "styles" i totally respect and would like to know more about. Personally i tend to favor specific musicians or compositions rather then specific styles of music.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 22:26:51

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

And what a great humble guy Stanley is, cheers for that Eric.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 22:30:33

rombsix

Posts: 7816
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

re Roma tutorial...wouldn't it be much simpler to write it out in staff notation?

Yes, no, maybe, I don't know. Can you repeat the question? You're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, and you're not so big. You're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, and you're not so big. Life is unfair...

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2013 23:02:39

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to rombsix)

Hey Ramzi

Is Tennessee cracking you up?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 3:57:50

kikkoman

Posts: 108
Joined: Nov. 19 2009

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Philip Hii

kazuhito yamashita also required 3 fingered runs in his symphonic and piano trancriptions which was way before those guys.

edit:although i do understand what you mean by it increasing in prevalence nowadays

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 4:01:55

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

quote:

there is actually only one other style which Wilfried totally respects and would love to learn more about, yep, flamenco.

Interesting you should cite this example.

When I first moved to Montreal from England I was fortunate enough to meet (chat with,and also accompanied) the celebrated French-Canadian traditional fiddler, Jean Carignan. Incredibly fast and accurate rythmic techniques and renowned for his unique playing style, particularly his inventive bowing techniques.

Jean told me that the leader of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra sometimes took his string section along to local folk clubs and perfomances where he was playing, just to observe his unique playing techniques, some of which were very different from accepted princples of classical violin playing.

Apparently the 'leader' felt they all had something to learn from this little guy who could play so fast and accurate and still rattle his feet on the floor at the same time.

He was an incredible musician. But so are many other traditional - relatively unschooled - musicians.

Including flamenco guitarists. . .

Thanks for sharing this interesting experience.
Indeed very true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

Unfortunately lifespan is to limited to study/learn/play everything you like but i know a couple of more "styles" i totally respect and would like to know more about. Personally i tend to favor specific musicians rather then specific styles of music.

You are right. Me too, but serious classical musicians/teachers are often times a little more "selective" than us usually, so i was happy that at least flamenco was the music genre which was the chosen one to be respected and admired

@Ramzi

Your new guitar sounds amazing. You have a totally new sound.
Never seen such a sudden change from other players/videos in the foro.
That was a wise decision.
Also thanks for the vid. Love those chords :)

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 7:41:02

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

Yes, no, maybe, I don't know. Can you repeat the question? You're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, and you're not so big. You're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, and you're not so big. Life is unfair...

It was just a suggestion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 9:49:10

manicfingers

Posts: 47
Joined: Nov. 19 2011

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

aeolus - flamenco is traditionally learnt without paper transcriptions. It is usually learnt eye-to-eye, ear-to-ear, for very good reason - many of the subtle nuances, aire, compas and groove unique to flamenco guitar will just get lost using classical transcription techniques.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 10:41:49

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

I think the only thing that will end this is if I go over to delcamp and start making fun of their lack of rhythm.

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 13:10:28

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

I think the only thing that will end this is if I go over to delcamp and start making fun of their lack of rhythm.

Or even better, go over there and ruin every thread with a final
"aha,,, ok,,,, but we flamencos get the girls" comment .

(just kidding)
no offence meant to our classical friends

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 13:27:16

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

To hear 21k in ones twenty's is indeed extraordinary.

It's nice to be able to hear a wide frequency span, but the test only proves that one can hear, not necessarily that one can listen as well. When i entered Rotterdam Conservatory to study flamenco guitar on a full time base i had impeccable ears, but soon learned that many nuances that entered it never were detected/appreciated by my brain. Unless you are a natural talent one can only see/hear things that one has learned to see/hear. My classical and flamenco guitar teaching father (also my main teacher at Rotterdam Conservatory) always argued "for most people a sparrow is just a sparrow, but an expert can distinguish various almost identical looking species" (like the House Sparrow/Tree sparrow/Spanish Sparrow and Italian Sparrow..... and they are relatively easy to distinguish compared to some other types of bird groups).

The same counts for listening....when i entered Rotterdam Conservatory (at the age of 23) despite my "golden ears" i still had to learn a lot about the art of listening..... and feeling ....still do actually: even at my best moments i was not able to distinguish the minute trembling differences between neighboring notes on the same string using my finger tips only. But i was able to mentally slow down a vibrating string with some kind of mental oscilloscope, making re-playing a trembling string feel like pushing someone in a swing....if you push at the right moment of the movement you add energy, if you push at the wrong moment of the swing you distract energy; it's the same with adding new energy to a trembling string ....that's what i call nuance :-). I lost that capacity over the years and unfortunately fail to produce many of my other "once gained nuances" most of the time. My worst enemy (and never fully concurred) is rhythm, although it becomes better when i spent some quality time with the instrument over a longer period of time on a daily base. Last time i did that was 20 years ago :-(

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 14:26:52

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

When i entered Rotterdam Conservatory to study flamenco guitar on a full time base i had impeccable ears,

Were you excused from learning to read music and were tabs acceptable? David Russell has written that he learned to play the guitar listening to his father's Segovia records and when he arrived in London at 15 to study at the Royal Conservatoire he didn't know how to read music. So obviously he had a lot going for him that didn't require acute hearing. But it must be odd being able to hear things no one else can.
Last I heard the Russian Conservatories won't even teach classical guitar let alone flamenco.

Paul Bowles writes that the illiterate Moroccans had a highly developed sense of rhythm This was back in the 50s when he saw it was dying out and got a grant to travel into remote areas and record the music. So as flamenco has complex rhythm is seems to be a trait of those less sophisticated in language

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 15:10:33

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

So as flamenco has complex rhythm is seems to be a trait of those less sophisticated in language

These zingers keep getting better and better!

As we all know Spanish is little more then grunts, clicks and whistles........

At first I was highly offended by you aeolus, now I think it's hilarious.

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 15:21:13

jeff_hatcher

Posts: 46
Joined: Aug. 26 2012

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

So as flamenco has complex rhythm is seems to be a trait of those less sophisticated in language

If yer trolling for some "unsophisticated language", yer approach is spot on.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 15:22:23

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

Paul Bowles writes that the illiterate Moroccans had a highly developed sense of rhythm This was back in the 50s when he saw it was dying out and got a grant to travel into remote areas and record the music. So as flamenco has complex rhythm is seems to be a trait of those less sophisticated in language

Anyone here still think that this guy doesn't know he's a troll ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 15:22:56

shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

Paul Bowles writes that the illiterate Moroccans had a highly developed sense of rhythm This was back in the 50s when he saw it was dying out and got a grant to travel into remote areas and record the music. So as flamenco has complex rhythm is seems to be a trait of those less sophisticated in language

The inability to read or write does not make one incapable of language or less sophisticated in language. Moroccans have an incredible grasp on language. What's more impressive, is that many of the people you meet there that speak six or more languages have learned them without any formal schooling. It's not just rudimentary skills in these languages, either. The people I met were fully fluent. Their spoken English was much better than much of the written English I've read on internet forums.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 15:34:24

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1891
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

please all keep it civilized, before the popcorn vendor arrives...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 15:34:50

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

Please all keep it civilized, before the popcorn vendor arrives...

While I wholeheartedly agree with you, dear _imiJ, I am sure we all realize that Aelus is enjoying teasing us [occasionally crossing that fragile threshold beween conversation and confrontation] because we [the Foro] have become so much more proper and civil, far from the old days when we indulged fierce feuds and public lynching when anyone dared insulting our 'love'... Flamenco.

I am impressed how sable this thread is, lively but politely rational. It seems we have all kept the promise we made to Ron, to keep it as 'cool' as he would have asked us to.

[Incidentally, good to see you xirdneH_, and great -really awesome- job with that score you embroidered so well of Vicente Amigo's Roma; thank you.]

_____________________________

gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 15:47:34

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

The inability to read or write does not make one incapable of language or less sophisticated in language. Moroccans have an incredible grasp on language. What's more impressive, is that many of the people you meet there that speak six or more languages have learned them without any formal schooling. It's not just rudimentary skills in these languages, either. The people I met were fully fluent. Their spoken English was much better than much of the written English I've read on internet forums.

I was talking about mid century. What Bowles found when they achieved independence was that they wanted to westernize quickly and he found the government officials hostile to his plans to record native music. He said that earlier in the cafes the old men would tell stories and smoke kif and later the cafes had TV and everyone sat watching TV. He spoke the native dialect and had recorded and translated a number of the tales of the story tellers and had them published so they could m make some money. They make interesting reading as a record of life at the time at their level. But they are not the work of educated men of course.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2013 15:53:47