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Demos un giro a la conversaciòn porque no sè si usted es de la opioniòn de que no se puede explicar España sin los toros y el flamenco.
Serìa imposible definir España sin esa forma tan particular de entender la vida que se ve reflejado en la hondura del flamenco o en la verdad que fluye en el arte de torear. Yo no me imagino España con otra mùsica. Asì de claro te digo. Es que no me suena. Y lo compruebo cada vez que viajo al extranjero para ofrecer mi cante. Fuera es donde màs se nos ve lo que hay bajo la piel.
................
Me viene al pelo al siguiente pregunta: ¿Còmo le explicamos a un guiri que es el toreo o el flamenco?
Eso es otra cosa. Sentir se puede sentir pero entender requiere argumentos y yo creo que para explicarlo se tendrìa que marcar unas cuantas noches frente a una guitarra o tardes enteras en el tendido de una plaza.
¿Y a a un antitaurino, còmo le explicamos el arte de torear?
Es difìcil porque no lo va a querer entender, porque su posiciòn crìtica y cerrada en banda no le va a dejar sentir. .....
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
The fact that Flamenco and bullfighting are correlated does not prove that they are the same thing.
I accept that bullfighters have always (so far) been drawn from the same gene-pool as flamencos. I accept that bull-fighting may be very exciting, with all sorts of virtues as a spectator sport. I read Death in the Afternoon.
What I do not accept is that torturing animals is a legitimate way of passing the time, however entertaining it may be (and yes, I know that the torture is not the point). Aren’t the horses gored repeatedly? Or do they put Kevlar body-armour on them now?
And what would you think of a matador who wore Kevlar body-armour? Wouldn’t he be a laughing-stock? And if so, does this not show that the chance of his getting gored is part of the attraction?
I which case, why should I not cheer for the bull? You know the British always root for the underdog.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
quote:
What I do not accept is that torturing animals is a legitimate way of passing the time, however entertaining it may be (and yes, I know that the torture is not the point). Aren’t the horses gored repeatedly? Or do they put Kevlar body-armour on them now?
Hello, Paul,
As I posted earlier on this thread, I neither root for the bull nor wish the matador to be gored. Nevertheless, the bull is always playing against a stacked deck, and it is an unfair match. The thing that I have always thought diminishes any bravery shown by the matador is the preliminary work on the bull before the matador begins his cape-work. The picadors, especially, on horseback and with their pikes digging in and weakening the neck muscles of the bull, create an unfair advantage for the matador. I understand the meaning of the corrida to aficionados as well as anyone, and I understand the part played by the picadors and why, but I cannot accept as completely courageous the matador who knowingly faces a deliberately weakened animal in the ring.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
Nevertheless, the bull is always playing against a stacked deck, and it is an unfair match.
As I understand, it’s not meant to be fair (or unfair); it’s a chance for the matador to show his skill. Notions of sportsmanship in the Anglo-Saxon sense don’t enter into it.
So basically it’s just a bunch of macho posturing.
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Wow.
There are things that you may not like about bullfighting, but unless you watch some and understand the way matadors stand and move and most importantly stat perfectly still facing the bull, you will never understand flamenco.
The point most miss in bullfighting is not the action, but the stillness. The stillness is the absolute essence of how flamenco dance works not to mention solea cante. The way a dancer stretches time by holding perfectly still or the way they mark when they walk across a stage s from the corrida. The way a singer holds a presence while singing is that stillness. If dancer can work that stillness and make time stop for a millisecond that is magic. If a matador does the same thing it's also stopping time, it's pure stillness.
The ways those things work is where the the way flamenco looks and feels comes from. I don't know whether you can extract that part of it without examining bullfighting, whether you like it or not that is where the breathtaking parts of flamenco were derived from.
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to estebanana)
Great recipe before going to the corrida: turbante de lenguado.
Buy a big sole, remove and skin fillets. (make caldo or stock with the remains). Make a mini plaza de toros with each fillet and fix witha toothpick. Make a sofrito of onion, peppers and diced langostinos. Make a thick bechamel sauce with plenty of nuez moscada.
Fill each plaza to overflowing with the mix of sofrito and bechamel and place in oven at 200ºC for 14 minutes. Open a bottle of fine white wine. When all is finished, collect your cojín and off to the Plaza Real. Or to bed with la guapa
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
quote:
As I understand, it’s not meant to be fair (or unfair); it’s a chance for the matador to show his skill. Notions of sportsmanship in the Anglo-Saxon sense don’t enter into it.
You are correct, and the skill shown by the matador in his sweeping veronicas executed as close to the bull as possible is akin to a ballet performance. Stephen is correct to emphasize the "stillness" as well. Nevertheless, as important as all of this is in the overall understanding of what constitutes the corrida, there is always a strong element of courage, for it is ostensibly courage (and, of course, skill) that enables the matador to execute his performance as flawlessly as possible. Nevertheless, I find the matador's courage diminished in view of the deliberately weakened animal he faces. Of course, it is that very deliberate weakening of the neck muscles, accomplished through the work of the Picador, that allows the matador to perform his ballet. Without the weakening of the bull, there would be no ballet. And since the ballet is everything, true aficionados accept the picador's work. So do I. I would just suggest that, while under the circumstances and rules of the corrida it does not diminish the skill of the matador, in my opinion it does diminish the quality of courage required to execute his performance. That is an argument that will not go over with Spaniards and other aficionados, but there it is.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Well I was making the contrast the ways in which the two cultures keep animals, which is worse? American factory farming or bullfighting?
See in the end it is form of curlual bias to judge the Spaniards for their culture, they are responsible for what it brings to them. And vice versa for the American factory farm culture.
So a picador slams a spear into the bulls back muscles to get it to lower its head when it charges. And a factory farm is often several city blocks long, indoors with poor light and sanitation, thousands of rows of cages that hold a crippled trapped animals for their entire lives.
When I thought about that I thought well better not judge the Spanish even though bullfighting is brutal. I thought which is more sad and I came to the conclusion the factory farms were worse than bullfighting. And therefore felt it would be hypocritical and culturally ridiculous to judge them given that our culture does not treat animals with as much dignity as a corrida treats the animal.
That is not to say I don't find parts of bullfighting cruel or difficult to understand why it's done, but to see factory farming did not contribute to forming art like flamenco which speaks about life and death...well every culture gets its collective karmic retribution for how it acts.
Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
The thing that I have always thought diminishes any bravery shown by the matador is the preliminary work on the bull before the matador begins his cape-work. The picadors, especially, on horseback and with their pikes digging in and weakening the neck muscles of the bull, create an unfair advantage for the matador. I understand the meaning of the corrida to aficionados as well as anyone, and I understand the part played by the picadors and why, but I cannot accept as completely courageous the matador who knowingly faces a deliberately weakened animal in the ring.
Bill, a matador doesn't always have "preliminary work" on the bull before he starts his faena. Many times they receive the bull à porta gaiola, as you may well know. That's probably the most risky thing matadores can do, it's even more dangerous than killing. I always feel realy sorry for their mothers when they do that.
Also, picadores are not there to "create an unfair advantage for the matador", as you said. Picadores are part of the first tercio, that's why it is called tercio de varas. They jab the bull more or less times, depending on it's strength, but never too much. As Estebanana said, bullfighting is more about the stillness and you can't have that with the bull in its full strength, that's why the muleta comes in the last tercio. But if the picador exaggerates, the public will immediately start whistling because no one wants to watch a corrida with a tired bull.
EDIT: Just read your last post. In your other post it did not seem to me that you understood the function of the picadores, but from your last post I realized you do.
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
quote:
quote:
Miura bulls live on an open range and only fight the last day of their lives and for 45 minutes and they get to kill the human if they can.
Oh well, I guess that’s OK then.
does anyone know how a bull would die a "natural" death in the "wild"?
starvation? disease? predation?
in the case of predation it would likely be by wolves or perhaps further south lions or hyenas....
in the case of wolves they are not able to kill the large prey they typically hunt in the same the way lions do (jumping on the back and biting the neck), so they just run it down to exhaustion (considerably longer than 45 minutes), and when it goes down on the ground they tuck in. The prey animal bleeds to death while being eaten alive.
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Many times they receive the bull à porta gaiola, as you may well know. That's probably the most risky thing matadores can do, it's even more dangerous than killing.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
See in the end it is form of curlual bias to judge the Spaniards for their culture, they are responsible for what it brings to them. And vice versa for the American factory farm culture.
Stephen, I am neither engaging in cultural bias nor judging the Spaniards for their culture. I think I have made it clear that I accept all three elements of the corrida, including the picadors. I know what they are for and why. I hope the corrida continues in its present form in Spain and Latin America. My comment on the diminished courage it takes to perform the ballet with the weakened bull (as opposed to a bull that has not been "worked on" by the picadors) represents my personal take on courage. And as I stated, without the weakening of the bull, there would be no ballet. As I stated above, I know it would not go over with Spaniards and other aficionados, and I would never argue the point with them because it would make little sense. The ballet is everything.
Fredguitarraole, obviously nothing I stated above about courage applies in the case of "a porta gaiola." That's enough to induce even me to say a prayer!
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
does anyone know how a bull would die a "natural" death in the "wild"?
starvation? disease? predation?
in the case of predation it would likely be by wolves or perhaps further south lions or hyenas....
in the case of wolves they are not able to kill the large prey they typically hunt in the same the way lions do (jumping on the back and biting the neck), so they just run it down to exhaustion (considerably longer than 45 minutes), and when it goes down on the ground they tuck in. The prey animal bleeds to death while being eaten alive.
Mark, there are no touros bravos in freedom. But even if there were, they wouldn't be a prey for any other species, that's for sure. What differenciates them from their relatives you see on wild life TV programs, is that they don't back off when threatened because of their temperament. In the wild they would probably die of old age or disease. I don't doubt a group of lions could kill a bull of this kind, but some lionesses would be dead by the the end of the kill, I'm sure of it.
Anyways, I get your point, in the wild it's worse.
Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
Many times they receive the bull à porta gaiola, as you may well know. That's probably the most risky thing matadores can do, it's even more dangerous than killing.
Holy crap, that was nuts.
You had never seen that Stephen? It's not very common, but from time to time they do that. They also do that in the corrida a cavalo and in recortes. Doing a sorte de porta gaiola, especially on foot, is more about having some really big balls than skill. They need to count on luck. The bull rarely comes in a straight line and is always very confused on where to turn, since it just entered the arena. Many times they get seriously injured doing this. Sometimes they get killed.
quote:
Fredguitarraole, obviously nothing I stated above about courage applies in the case of "a porta gaiola." That's enough to induce even me to say a prayer!
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
I've only read about that, and I had not thought to look for it on Youtube.
I see your point Bill.
BTW The Village is closing, which you may already know. My sister told me last night that the Authurs could not get through another lease deal with 26 families that jointly own the land. Can you imagine?
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen
I’ve never denied that it may be artistic, entrancing, etc. etc.
Juan Belmonte revolutionized toreo, or some said, returned it to its 18th-century purity established by Pedro Romero, whose statue stands at the entrance to the plaza in his native Ronda. Belmonte was praised to the sky by the critics, worshipped by the public, a national hero.
The great Galician dramatist and novelist del Valle-Inclan said to him, "All that remains for you to do is to die in the ring."
Belmonte replied, "Well, Don Ramon, I do what I can."
Del Valle-Inclan's remark turned out to be prophetic.
One may debate the artistry, one may empathize with the bull or with the torero. A brave and agile bull is admired and cheered as much as a brave or an artistic torero. It is about both the bull and the man.
In the end, it is about how they face death, both the bull and the man, and about how all of us will one day.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
BTW The Village is closing, which you may already know. My sister told me last night that the Authurs could not get through another lease deal with 26 families that jointly own the land. Can you imagine?
Yes, Bob and Patti Arthur almost lost it a few years ago but managed to win their case. Their hold on The Village has been rather tenuous ever since. It is a real shame they are losing it because they (and their son, who pretty much manages it now) created and maintained a marvelous oasis in Pohnpei. I can't imagine the locals, even if they bring in a manager from outside, will keep up the quality control that has made it a paradise. When I was in Micronesia last year, I spent every Sunday at The Village having the best Eggs Benedict in the Pacific for breakfast! It is the passing of an era.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
In the end, it is about how they face death, both the bull and the man, and about how all of us will one day.
And so we return full circle to Ernest Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon." (Hemingway had much to say about Belmonte, by the way.) But allow me to submit a short piece by Somerset Maugham that illustrates the inevitability of death. It is entitled "Death Speaks," and it is based on an ancient tale from the time of Harun al-Rashid in Baghdad.
Death Speaks
"There was a merchant in Baghdad who sent his servant to market to buy provisions and in a little while the servant came back, white and trembling, and said, Master, just now when I was in the market-place I was jostled by a woman in the crowd and when I turned I saw it was Death that jostled me. Death looked at me and made a threatening gesture; now, lend me your horse, and I will ride away from this city and avoid my fate. I will go to Samarra and there Death will not find me. The merchant lent him his horse, and the servant mounted it, and he dug his spurs in its flanks and as fast as the horse could gallop he went.
Then the merchant went down to the marketplace and he saw me standing in the crowd and he came to me and said, Why did you make a threatening gesture to my servant when you saw him this morning? That was not a threatening gesture, I said, it was only a start of surprise. I was astonished to see him in Baghdad, for I had an appointment with him tonight in Samarra."
Now, let me get back to my daydreams of running with the bulls and drinking tinto with Ava Gardner
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
BTW The Village is closing, which you may already know. My sister told me last night that the Authurs could not get through another lease deal with 26 families that jointly own the land. Can you imagine?
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Sean)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sean
Finally_I_see_a_Bullfighter_as_brave_as_a_clown
I neither defend nor condemn the fiesta brava. I have just tried to say what it is from the perspective of the aficionado. It is a perspective utterly foreign to most non-Spanish Europeans, to most North Americans, and to many in Spain itself. By a quirk of my own experience as a native of South Texas, where 90% of the people speak Spanish at home, and where the toros were a part of the culture for many, this perspective was opened to me.
It is a perspective foreign to almost all my friends and to the next two generations of my family. We spent a lot of time in Mexico with the kids, but I never took them to a corrida as teenagers, as my father and uncles had done with me. We don't talk about it.
But this is the sort of wrinkle I gradually came to accept as I grew older. Educated as a pure mathematician and physicist, I made a career as an engineer. I play both classical and flamenco guitar. They are entirely different perspectives on music. I would not willingly give up either. As a kid trumpeter I played classical, jazz, pop and mambo. For me, each was a hoot. Most of my friends from each genre condemned all the others.
So be it.
As Brother Dave used to say, "Everybody's got his own kick going."
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Death of Patricia McCormick (La ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Belmonte was praised to the sky by the critics, worshipped by the public, a national hero.
And deservedly so. In his work "Death in the Afternoon" Hemingway wrote that Belmonte "would wind a bull around him like a belt." By the way, Belmonte also was on the January 5, 1925 cover of TIME magazine, so he was a well-known international figure as well.
Interestingly, when I was growing up in Arizona I was the only one in my crowd with an interest in bullfighting, and the only two matadors that anyone, even among the adults, seemed to had heard of were Manolete and Belmonte. Of the two, my impression was that Manolete was far better known in the US than Belmonte, although both were well known among aficionados. They both had different styles, but both contributed their share to modern bullfighting. Both died tragically, Manolete of a goring in 1947, and Belmonte of a self-inflicted gunshot in 1962.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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