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RE: History of Paco de Lucia?   You are logged in as Guest
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Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: History of Paco de Lucia? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I would agree with most of your points, but cepa has so much more energy than Punta. I like the palmas on cepa way more too.

For me Fuente's big numbers are cepa, fuente, and the tango. Those three are all monster pieces and great examples of those forms in that period. They all three stand up today as great guitar playing and pieces IMO. The tango and bulerias just groove so hard.

The other thing is I didn't own Duende in 1985-even Paco's record's were not that available then, and I wore out Fuente so it's burned in my brain. Is Juan correct about the falseta you like? I don't know if that's the one, but what to you was so different about it?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


THat is a common view. I honestly feel the record right before it was MORE innovative, (duende flamenco) and I prefer several of the tracks as compositions too. Buleria are both good, but same vein, and there is ONE super unique sweet falseta way ahead of it's time IMO on Punta del Faro...comparing to Cepa. But that is my opinion only. I know most aficianados are turned off by the orchestra on a couple tracks. That is understandable of course. But for example the alegrias compositionally speaking on Fuente is quite RETRO (with even some monotya and Ricardo quotes compared to the elagant melodic "barrio la Viña". Solea also has some through backs vs the solea on Duende which was quite fresh in its day. And parts of Rondeña are still played in concert today verses most of the material from Fuente has disappeared except for the tremolo of taranta and entre dos aguas (of course).

They way I see it the two records could go together pretty nicely as a double album, but there is a clear slow evolution through all of pacos' recorded material. Seeing live performances such as Rito, really fills in the gaps.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2013 23:56:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: History of Paco de Lucia? (in reply to Mark2) 
quote:

I would agree with most of your points, but cepa has so much more energy than Punta. I like the palmas on cepa way more too.


I always felt the palmas were a bit too loud on that one. It's your opinion and that is fine. To me they both are same vein, but considering punta was FIRST I take it as more innovative in general. I think both had amazing energy as performances and both had tight palmas, although perhaps cepa is more aggressive at times? Anyway yes Juan caught the falseta...it's pretty crazy compas wise plus he sneaks in the first hints of bossa type chord moves and what people call "jazz" type phrasing, very synchopated with a final ii-V-I walking down.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2013 0:36:07
 
shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: History of Paco de Lucia? (in reply to Mark2) 
When was the album with Maria Vargas recorded?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2013 15:31:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: History of Paco de Lucia? (in reply to shaun) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: shaun

When was the album with Maria Vargas recorded?



1973

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2013 17:22:46
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: History of Paco de Lucia? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Okay, I've got a comment--though I certainly am not familiar with all the details of Paco's discography, I've listened to a fair amount of it.

An idea has finally occurred to me why the bossa nova harmonies I hear on Paco's later stuff doesn't really excite me that much. When I was in high school in the early 1950s I listened to Willis Conover's radio show, while he was still a local jazz DJ in Washington, DC, before he became the Voice of America jazz ambassador. I never missed going to Jazz at the Philharmonic when their show came to town. By the time I was 16 my buddies and I were using our fake IDs to get into jazz clubs in DC to hear Oscar Peterson, Getz and Chet Baker--you name it. We went to New York to hear Duke Ellington.

Willis played everything from Louis Armstrong to Count Basie to Monk to Lennie Tristano to Stan Kenton to hard bop-Diz, Bird and those guys. I could go to Waxy Maxie's record shop downtown, buy stuff that I heard on the radio, and try to figure it out on the piano at home. I wrote arrangements for the 9-piece band i organized among friends: a lot of standards, some of the great American songbook, some swing, but some a little bit adventurous--for that time and place.

When bossa nova came along, I thought it was really cool. It sounded to me like cool jazz harmonies incorporated with laid back Brazilian rhythm. I'm not talking about primarily guitar stuff, I'm talking about Getz/Gilberto and the like, horn players doing bossa, though I did listen to Bonfa, Baden etc. This was before I got into guitar, before scheduling in college made it impossible to continue on trumpet in the symphony and concert band.

After I took up guitar, I did mostly flamenco because there wasn't a classical teacher in Austin who I thought amounted to much in the late 50s-early 60s. The rhythm and harmony of flamenco appealed as something new to me--phrygian, taranta, rondeña--I thought it was cool, and different from the diatonic, serial and atonal stuff I played on classical trumpet, and the stuff I played on jazz trumpet or wrote for my little band.

So the stuff that the experts inform me is bossa--not jazz--in Paco's stuff sometimes sounds kind of old, third hand, superimposed on traditional flamenco. It sometimes sounds like kind of an uneasy marriage to me, given the sequence of my experience. I can see that someone who began with classical and flamenco might find Paco's harmonic adventures fascinating.

But I was listening to the most up to date jazz on the radio and on records 62 years ago when I was 13, and playing Bartok and Stravinsky in the Summer Symphony when I was 15, and doing the high notes in screaming jazzed up mambo charts when I was 16, so bossa "innovations" in flamenco don't sound all that innovative to me.

Sorry, guys, no offense, just my take based on the quirks of personal history. And I do like a lot of Paco's stuff from his various periods where he subtly alters flamenco harmony and rhythm--but not all of it.

And like a lot of flamenco fans, as time has gone on, I seldom listen to solo guitar these days. It's mostly cante when I decide to listen to flamenco on the hi-fi.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2013 18:18:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: History of Paco de Lucia? (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
quote:

But I was listening to the most up to date jazz on the radio and on records 62 years ago when I was 13, and playing Bartok and Stravinsky in the Summer Symphony when I was 15, and doing the high notes in screaming jazzed up mambo charts when I was 16, so bossa "innovations" in flamenco don't sound all that innovative to me.


It's more about left hand movements than literally the harmonic usage, the staccato stabs of chords etc. but fair enough, I also admit growing up with rock guitar and classical both the exotic harmonic ideas and modal dissonance coupled with the bright biting RH attack of flamenco guitar is so exotic and attractive to this day. when hearing Pata negra and hearing the testimony of some young spaniards that thought the idea so fresh, the blues or pentatonic licks mixed into flamenco, and string bending etc, is the most bland tasteless thing I can stomach with fusion ideas. Also 'warm round tone" of classical guitarists is also annoying to me. the bossa thing works for me when the flamenco compas is expressed right, so long as the dynamics don't venture toward the softer sleepy side. '

ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2013 19:40:46
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: History of Paco de Lucia? (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
excellent post

i was born in 1974, but sort of feel the same way...heard all that jazzy stuff in r&B, blues based rock and salsa my whole life

a big part of the appeal of flamenco is that mysterious and somewhat aggressive atmosphere the phrygian mode evokes
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 21 2013 3:31:29
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: History of Paco de Lucia? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

The conde family business has more to do with his brother (Ramon's) concern about them using paco to advertise when in fact the builders of the guitar he used died in 1988-9.


Strangely, I copied a 1968 Conde guitar that Ramon used in the 1969 Hemisfair in San Antonio which he sold to a friend of mine. I have built several copies of it in the past long scale but adjusted it to 650 mm.......And when I was in Madrid in 1965 I bought a 45 record of Paco playing bulerias and Siguriyas. Later I traded the music to Nino Bernardo, Bernard Kriel, in San Francisco, for most of his Sabicas tabs.

Also, when I was 17, I attended a Jose Greco show in Dallas and a little kid asked me to let him sign my program book. He was not listed on the program but he turned out to be Paco, who signed his name PACO LUCIA. He must have been about 13 at the time. I think I still have that program in my music box somewhere with the signatures of Manolo Boron and Ricardo Modrego as the lead guitarists.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2013 1:09:35
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