RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook Zern, have a read.

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Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Of course cantaores don`t really sing microtones that often. This is a misconception.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 16:39:03

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Of course cantaores don`t really sing microtones that often. This is a misconception.

Yes, that's true. and has been discussed on other threads.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 17:18:07

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

Of course cantaores don`t really sing microtones that often. This is a misconception.

Either you are deaf or have a serious deficiency in pitch recognition. So I guess they have just been singing out of tune all these years? You aren't really that stupid are you?

And for the "prominent windbag" ... I can see you are fascinated with the fantasy you have created yourself. Relax, it won't be long that the generation of windbags like you who propagate misinformation and negativity will be gone and a new set of old guys armed with better information and more respect for the art both new and old in all of its many-faceted incarnations will replace you and your small minded counterparts. For this, the art of flamenco will thrive, free to take its natural course and progress on. It must really suck for you that you can't keep flamenco locked up tight in the artificial, nonexistent confines that those you gained your misinformation from shackled your mind with. The thing about progress is that you can't hold it back forever and with a living art like flamenco it will eventually break free of the fools like you who claim to posses something you don't actually possess. I have enjoyed watching it all unfold and though sad, the passing of great artists even if they have a venomous position on new ideas, I can grant them my utmost respect and reverence as they are artists where as people like you are mere windbags. I am also certain that my generation will not be free of mistakes, but lord help us to not come off as asinine those of yours who have done such disservice to a beautiful art form. Kazakhstan is a great vantage point to view such events and I can only admit that even after devoting the majority of my half-century of life that I still can only claim to know very little of the art of flamenco and as long as I can see more to learn down the road I can look forward to sifting through both the good information and bad I come across as I always have, weighing each for what it is worth. The job of defining flamenco is beyond me and it is out of respect that I come to such conclusion and it is of the same respect that must point finger at such as yourself. People like you and I come and go and will have no effect on the future development of flamenco. You have given your rant and I have given mine.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 17:53:09

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

But I don't see a need for people to praise a singular artist of a big genre by dumping on all the others around, like it's a competition of who is superior as an artist. But that is just me.

indeed

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 17:54:32

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

Yes, that's true. and has been discussed on other threads.

by some windbags on an internet discussion forum, and that doesn't make it true

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 17:55:51

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

RibNibbler, not all the cante is microtonal, although some of the pitches definitely are. If guitarists incorporated those microtones in their chordal accompaniment, harmonic support would become a total mess. For special occasions, guitar is fully capable of producing microtones. A skilled guitarist can play reliable quarter tones (or any other microtone variety) in single melodies by bending the string.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:09:30

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

RibNibbler, not all the cante is microtonal

duh

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:12:31

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

I don't know what "duh" means.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:16:02

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

.....I hope all the insults are meant in a good natured sporting kind of way....otherwise someone needs a few slaps

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:18:11

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to mark74)

quote:

someone needs a few slaps

thats sort of what I was thinking

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:20:32

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Grisha)

One of the great things of my old school is that it covers various kinds of wold music, allowing one to meet lot's of interesting musicians, styles and instruments. I was lucky enough to attend a lecture of the microtonal guitar by Tolgohan Cogulu, who also allowed me to play his beautiful guitar. He played some very beautiful arrangements of traditional turkish music. My father played the e phrygian scale once on such a guitar with a microtonal raised f and according to him f-e had never ever sounded so exiting as on that moment.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:21:05

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

Oud...

Cante existed before guitar. Guitar came later. Cante makes use of micro-tones in some cases.

Thinking... its a wonderful thing to spend time doing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:24:40

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

Do we know much about when the guitar entered into flamenco?

I'm pretty sure it was a spanish (not-gypsy) folk instrument that was used for fandangos in their original sense ) sevillanas etc even before the Torres design....at least I think so..isn't that how either Carulli or Sor came across it?

Or maybe its Gaspar Sanz I'm thinking of..not sure

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:35:37

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to RibNibbler)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RibNibbler

Oud...

Cante existed before guitar. Guitar came later. Cante makes use of micro-tones in some cases.

get over it

What has sharing this wonderful instrument with the foro to do with cante? I reacted on Grisha who mentioned playing microtonals on a normal guitar. On top, nobody denies the occurrence of microtones in cante..... so get over it :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:36:04

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

What has sharing this wonderful instrument with the foro to do with cante?

precisely

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:38:54

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to RibNibbler)

quote:

You have given your rant and I have given mine.

Actually yours is a certifiable rant. All I did was give a humorous take on your idea that there was some kind of mass protest against the introduction of guitar into flamenco. By the way, how that constitutes ”misinformation and negativity” eludes me.

Speaking of “windbags,” your barely coherent rambling endless post qualifies as a hurricane.

And speaking of negativity, your posts are invariably negative, with nothing good to say, and nothing to contribute in a positive way for members. All you ever do is snarl, and bitch and moan, and if anyone disagrees with your opinion, as Morante did above, you call him “deaf” and “stupid.”

Grow up.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 19:05:10

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

All you ever do is snarl, and bitch and moan, and if anyone disagrees with your opinion, as Morante did above, you call him “deaf” and “stupid.”

It was a hypothetical statement. "If" was the key word.

You are right. I will grow up and limit myself to playing the first position so I don't offend you. I will pretend to know more than I do and insult only those more creative than myself.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 19:19:53

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

RibNibbler (sorry, you never posted your name), you mention "creativity" a lot. Instead of passing quick judgements on people you hardly know and posting YouTube videos in place of text answers, why not positively contribute to this forum? Maybe post something of yours in the "uploads" section - majority of members here have done so.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 19:39:33

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Grisha)

Has prominent windbag posted anything in the uploads of himself?

How about Morante?

I can't really play very well. I just have opinions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 19:59:08

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to RibNibbler)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RibNibbler

Has prominent windbag posted anything in the uploads of himself?

How about Morante?

I can't really play very well. I just have opinions.

I am not sure if they posted. Have a look yourself. Many others did. Stephen contributed a lot in the Lutherie section.

You don't have to be very good a player to post something. It's the feeling that counts, the creativity, the funkiness.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 20:11:38

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Grisha)

You can also contribute by calling a spade a spade

Bananaman brushes on shellac... geesh

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 20:15:01

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

Well, it's a bit like walking into a bar and picking up fights with people without buying a drink first.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 20:19:17

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

Well, it's a bit like walking into a bar and picking up fights with people without buying a drink first.

No its not that serious. Its just that Moron/Flamenco Puro discussion again.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 20:37:51

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to RibNibbler)

If you really want to know, Morante has produced three Cds of cante, has spent several years working in a taller of flamenco guitars and spent several years accompanying José Millán (an encyclopedic cantaor). He has also presented Jueves Flamencos, one of the most important summer festivals in Andalucía. He is a respected member of the Flamenco Peñas of Juan Villar and Enrique el Mellizo. Among his friends are modern guitarists such as Román Vicenti (director of music for Farruquito), Keko Baldomero (director of music for Sara Baras) and, of course Joselito de Puro.

And you??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 20:50:50

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

If you really want to know, Morante has produced three Cds of cante, has spent several years working in a taller of flamenco guitars and spent several years accompanying José Millán (an encyclopedic cantaor). He has also presented Jueves Flamencos, one of the most important summer festivals in Andalucía. He is a respected member of the Flamenco Peñas of Juan Villar and Enrique el Mellizo. Among his friends are modern guitarists such as Román Vicenti (director of music for Farruquito), Keko Baldomero (director of music for Sara Baras) and, of course Joselito de Puro.

There you go! That's a pretty commendable track record. Bravo!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 21:07:47

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

You have me there Morante. You can decide what is Puro and what is not. You earned it.

I'm still teaching my goat to dance so I can get my gig back from the accordion player and his monkey.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 21:50:32

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

Going back to the oud.....well it is relavent.

Much of the musical material from the time of Convivencia in Spain was a real extensive hodge podge of Jewish, Arabic, music of sea farers trading in Spain... a real mix of stuff and the Al Andalus music and Jewish and Arabic poetry. There as not fretted diatonic guitar on the scene in the late middle ages in Spain. It was the oud and the voice, with the ouds capability to follow more easily where a diatonic instrument does not want to go naturally.

Flamenco did not spring out of Zeus' head fully formed. And old old songs in flamenco were certainly not sung with guitar as we know it before the 19th century. So they must have been singing a capella......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 22:35:18

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to Morante)

Nibs I'm kind of feeling a bit of goat repression from you. Do I have to report you to the Kazach Goat Liberation Front?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 22:37:04

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Diego del Gastor essay by Brook ... (in reply to estebanana)

Cool, you know about medieval Al Andalus

I remember when i first discovered flamenco, because of Paco and Med Sundance (like everyone else) I became obsessed with medieval Spain and read a book by Richard Fletcher on the subject..not sure if you checked that one out..

Paco must know something of it himself, for he named an album Ziryab

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2013 2:17:35