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Carbon fibre as alternative to bone for saddle?
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
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First I'll say I have no experience with carbon fiber bridge saddles.
But with that out of the way, I'll say I'm a retired engineer, and my college room mate and good friend is one of the world's leading experts on composite materials. He is responsible for the first carbon fiber control surfaces on aircraft like the Airbus, the Eurofighter and the big Boeings. He's the guy who convinced Ferrari to go to carbon fiber monocoque construction on his F1 cars, while the old man was still alive. If you have a carbon fiber tennis racket, carbon fiber skis, kevlar body armor, stuff like that, you have Tom to thank for them.
We worked together on composite and skinned honeycomb helicopter blades. Chopper blades are an interesting problem, since they transition from subsonic to supersonic flow along the length of the blade.
Saying something is made of "carbon fiber" is like saying something is "ceramic". A ceramic can be anything from simple low-fired clay pottery to high tech super hand stuff like synthetic sapphire. "Carbon fiber" is really some form of plastic reinforced with some form of carbon fiber. The plastic can be epoxy, vinyl, nylon...you name it. The carbon fiber can be simple strands of tow, like dental floss, it can be 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional weave, it can even be super strong carbon nanotubes, as in some baseball bats or golf clubs.
The acoustic properties of a "carbon fiber" bridge saddle could be dead as a doornail, or really hard and bright.
All this is a long winded way of saying, if you're interested, buy one and try it. Ask your buddies if your guitar sounds better.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 15 2013 14:50:03
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rogeliocan
Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada
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RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
First I'll say I have no experience with carbon fiber bridge saddles.
But with that out of the way, I'll say I'm a retired engineer, and my college room mate and good friend is one of the world's leading experts on composite materials. He is responsible for the first carbon fiber control surfaces on aircraft like the Airbus, the Eurofighter and the big Boeings. He's the guy who convinced Ferrari to go to carbon fiber monocoque construction on his F1 cars, while the old man was still alive. If you have a carbon fiber tennis racket, carbon fiber skis, kevlar body armor, stuff like that, you have Tom to thank for them.
We worked together on composite and skinned honeycomb helicopter blades. Chopper blades are an interesting problem, since they transition from subsonic to supersonic flow along the length of the blade.
Saying something is made of "carbon fiber" is like saying something is "ceramic". A ceramic can be anything from simple low-fired clay pottery to high tech super hand stuff like synthetic sapphire. "Carbon fiber" is really some form of plastic reinforced with some form of carbon fiber. The plastic can be epoxy, vinyl, nylon...you name it. The carbon fiber can be simple strands of tow, like dental floss, it can be 2-dimensional or 3-dimensional weave, it can even be super strong carbon nanotubes, as in some baseball bats or golf clubs.
The acoustic properties of a "carbon fiber" bridge saddle could be dead as a doornail, or really hard and bright.
All this is a long winded way of saying, if you're interested, buy one and try it. Ask your buddies if your guitar sounds better.
Love this and love the conclusion.... just like food, yeah it looks great, it has this and that in it... but do you like the taste because that is ultimately what counts.
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Date Mar. 15 2013 15:11:02
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Blondie#2)
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Speaking of carbon fibre, Manuel Adalid (chief luthier at Esteve) is supposed to have experimented with making guitars with carbon fibre braces. He also has made guitars with double (sandwich) tops. I own a traditional Manuel Adalid Viviana blanca with wood bracing and a single top, and it has a very nice sound. Don't think I would want a guitar with carbon fibre braces or a double top. In any case, has anyone played a Manuel Adalid with carbon fibre braces? With a double top? What would be the advantage of carbon fibre braces? or is there any? And what would a double top do for the sound? I'm all for experimentation, but I wonder what the advantage would be in these cases.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 15 2013 17:17:47
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Alain Moisan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Alain Moisan
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
What would be the advantage of carbon fibre braces? or is there any? And what would a double top do for the sound?
In both cases, the point is to make a top that is lighter, thus vibrating more easily and producing a faster responding guitar with greater volume. I don't know much about carbon fibre braces, but I do know that double-tops are quite hype these days in the classical world (mostly with the new crowd -- students). That said, experienced players are not all that enthusiastic about it. It seems double-tops lacks the dynamics of a traditional top. In other words, there are many ways to snap a note, which will make it sound different. With a double-top, don't bother it always seem to sound the same. (That's exaggerated, by the way. But it's to make a point...).
For flamenco guitars it might sound good, but I would worry how the thin layer of wood over the honeycomb structure will appreciate golpes...
A few weeks ago I heard the classical player Jason Vieaux on his double top Gernot Wagner in concert. He is one of the top classical players today. It was one of the best classical sounds I have ever heard. The tonal variety and dynamics were utterly awesome. I've heard just about everyone from Segovia on his Hauser on forward. I own and play the guitar Romanillos made just before Bream's famous #501.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 16 2013 16:26:35
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Alain Moisan
Posts: 30
Joined: Jul. 24 2012
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RE: Carbon fibre as alternative to b... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Alain Moisan
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
What would be the advantage of carbon fibre braces? or is there any? And what would a double top do for the sound?
In both cases, the point is to make a top that is lighter, thus vibrating more easily and producing a faster responding guitar with greater volume. I don't know much about carbon fibre braces, but I do know that double-tops are quite hype these days in the classical world (mostly with the new crowd -- students). That said, experienced players are not all that enthusiastic about it. It seems double-tops lacks the dynamics of a traditional top. In other words, there are many ways to snap a note, which will make it sound different. With a double-top, don't bother it always seem to sound the same. (That's exaggerated, by the way. But it's to make a point...).
For flamenco guitars it might sound good, but I would worry how the thin layer of wood over the honeycomb structure will appreciate golpes...
A few weeks ago I heard the classical player Jason Vieaux on his double top Gernot Wagner in concert. He is one of the top classical players today. It was one of the best classical sounds I have ever heard. The tonal variety and dynamics were utterly awesome. I've heard just about everyone from Segovia on his Hauser on forward. I own and play the guitar Romanillos made just before Bream's famous #501.
RNJ
Well, you have to take my comments for what they are worth. It essentially corresponds to what my customer and other guitar enthusiasts have told me. And since double tops are far from being the majority of guitars out there, (and is still a pretty new concept that is still evolving), opinions about them should not be taken as facts.
in other words, your mileage may vary.
_____________________________
Alain Moisan
Les Guitares Moisan
www.guitaresmoisan.com
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Date Mar. 16 2013 20:52:26
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. That particular kind of CF is made under pressure, making it harder, with more graphite, and less resin in the mix. Gel coats are used to seal porous fiberglass and are not as hard as this material, but I suppose it could be made with coloured resin. Ugly? Ya it doesn't look right, but then neither does super white bleached bone; unbleached looks far better. 